While I'd love to go and throw Hitler into the gas chambers, when he means evil never wins he means in the long term. Also Hitler shot himself in the head so I'm going to count that as a win

By the catholic Hitler, who never was thrown out. The only high-up among the Nazis who got thrown out by the catholic churche was Joseph Goebbels - for marrying a divorced woman. Well, if that is, in the opinion of the church, the most relevant evil he has done in his life ... ....... uh ... hard to imagine they are even connected to reality at all.

A perfect being can create imperfect things if the choose too

Clatgineer, it's: if *he chooses *to.

Clatgineer, that's the dumbest thing that I have ever heard. No; by definition, a perfect being can't create imperfect things. A perfect being couldn't choose an imperfect choice to create imperfect things, especially things that piss him off. If he's all-knowing, with a divine plan, then how come he didn't see that these beings would piss him off from an infinity away? Let's look at the story of Lot. God made a bet with the devil and Lot was tortured. If god was all-knowing with a divine plan, why torture Lot? He knew the outcomes in advance. There's no point in it. To win a bet with the devil? Even though he won, he didn't change the devil's mind anyway. What was the point, except for needless torture? He killed Lot's family. He didn't even bring them back, but gave Lot new family members. How disgusting. Showing women are just property, to be needlessly killed if desired.

Oh that wasn't a critique, but a threat. Notice he provided absolutely no critical, evidentiary, or logical rebuttal to any of my points. They wish torture on me, and they are perfectly happy with an evil god that commits torture. I'm not as stubborn as you think I am. I am open to any scientific evidence. If any theist or any supernaturalist could provide sufficient scientific evidence of their claims, I would be forced to believe the claims. I would never worship an evil god, but if evidence of its existence were sufficient, I would believe it existed. Raven, I think you are almost as disgusting as jk, because you didn't criticize his threats of torture, you only criticized atheist stubbornness. You're both sickening to be ok with torture and worship a fictional torturer. F-u-c-k you both. You lack evidence and you lack basic morality.

It is very difficult for me to fully condemn anybody, as generally I get death threats for doing so. I am fed up with threats and insults, which is why I refused to offer any actual criticism.

Online? What power do death threats have if you aren't using your real name and there is such anonymity? Seems that is an easier way out instead of proving your points in the argument...

I would never threaten anyone with torture and I would never threaten anyone with eternal torture. I hope you take a serious look at your beliefs and your moral system. I noticed that you gave no rebuttal to my original comment as well. I think part of you realizes that this bible stuff doesn’t make sense and it’s immoral. If you really study it, it’s quite easy to debunk. If you think that these beliefs are true, I encourage you to study these claims at a high college level. Did the exodus really happen? No. Did the flood story? Certainly not.

Fine, let me go over and "give a rebuttal" to your original comment.

You go! I am 100% behind your statements.

I've been studying my faith for my whole life, thank you very much. I've read the history, the autobiographies, the Bible, several websites, papal teachings, the Catechism, etc. I know my Faith.

I know your faith too. I know it very very well. Faith is what you have when there is no evidence. If you REALLY studied religion with an open mind, you would see the numerous inconsistencies, flaws, and mental gymnastics necessary to believe. I suggest Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion as a good book to read.

Thank you for the recommendation, I'll look it up.

Seriously, please read it? As an author Dawkins comes across as pretentious, but he has excellent points.

yeah, I asked Jesus about some of the so-called "contradictions" that people bring up... He said that we could have a long slow cup of coffee someday at the great Starbucks in the sky, and he will explain it all. For the time being, I have to conclude that these inconsistencies and contradictions frequently cited by unbelievers are due to woefully flawed interpretation, and not errors in the book.

https://youtu.be/RB3g6mXLEKk

go to GotQuestions.org with your objections & concerns... you might learn something

okay... went there. Besides finding out self-pleasure is wrong, gays have a choice... this was one of the arguments for the "evidence of God." "Likewise for the structure of DNA. Empirical data lends credibility to the idea of a biblical Creator and contradicts alternative explanations, such as an eternal universe or abiogenesis." (This is just sad. They can't take any biological concept and say..."See that proves God." There is no explanation. No referencing. No experiments to show causation.. ) I also found out that any questions that are too hard (example: How could the food chain be re-established with only 2 of each species after they came off the Ark? (I know... and 7 of the clean...) or too technical (How do they explain human chromosome 2 other than a translocation of the chimps chromosomes 12/13?) are not asked. It's easy to look like you have all the answers when you're the one asking the questions.

1) There is a catch-22 here. God does not deal in natural proofs of God since he wants people to rely on faith. Irrefutable proof will be in evidence after the second coming. But belief in God based on that is not faith but sight. 2) Hugh Ross at Reasons to Believe offers the "long-day" interpretation of Genesis 1. All of your objections go away if you believe that. The "days" of Gen. 1 are ages. The flood was limited and recent. Evidence for the flood from paleontology is the massive ecological disaster that happened circa 12,000 b.c. There is worldwide evidence for this. 3) The genetic changes to go from a 48 chromosome chimp species to a 46 chromosome human species are massive. This required the expertise of an Intelligent Designer. Also, about 1.5% of the DNA in humans is new and is found in no other animal species. This DNA came from certain obscure, rare plant and fungus species only found in East Africa. This makes the differences between humans & chimps. Thanks, Intelligent Designer. This did not happen by random chance.

Raven, don’t lie, lying is a sin, you criticized atheists as being stubborn. You are perfectly happy to criticize atheists. Maybe you should shut up and be less of a hypocrite.

No, Terd, no threats of torture.... you are reading that in. The day will come that you will have to stand before King Jesus seated on his throne. He will ask you why you were so faithless and resistant to the truth of the Word. What will you say in that day and hour?

I'll take this. I would say... how come You couldn't appear to me in person if you wanted a personal relationship with me? How come nothing changed after Your son rose from the dead to conquer death and sin and yet we still sin and die? I would say, how come you let there be just as much "evidence" for all other religions as Christianity? How come being "saved" is localized to only certain parts of the world? How come you never performed any miracles especially for me to show me you exist? How come you used such a hateful Book (genocides, rapes, sanctioned female abductions, legalisms, condoning slavery )to show the nature of Yourself? How come You only originally cared about the Israelites? That's what I would say... and that's just off the top of my head.

boy did you miss it, Zophra. What church were you raised in that preaches junk like you are objecting to? Brief answers: 1) Jesus sometimes appears in dreams and in person through an angel to prospective converts. This miracle is frequently reported in the mid-east these days among jews and Muslims. 2) Jesus' kingdom is for now a heavenly kingdom. He will soon return to establish an earthly kingdom to conquer sin and death. 3) Christianity is different because of Jesus' resurrection. Founders of other religions are still in the grave. Bible-based Christianity is different because it teaches salvation by grace through faith, meaning salvation is a gift that can only be accepted, but never earned. All other religions teach salvation by works. 4) Christianity is a free choice. Don't blame God because some people reject it. It is a very hard choice for someone raised in Islam, Buddhism, or Hinduism to convert. 5) The key is to believe in Christ's resurrection. After that, personal miracles are possible. continued...

6) If you want to look at the face of God, look to Jesus. He never committed genocide, rape, abduction, slavery or enslavements, or any of the other crimes you mention. The old Testament law is obsolete for Christians, and so are your legalistic objections here. 7) God looked at the human race after the flood, and there was not one family out of all the families that loved and served him as the true and living God. There was a sea of religions, but no true faith that he accepted. So he chose Abraham and his family to bring the word of God into the world and ultimately to bring his Son Jesus into the world. Salvation was offered first to Abraham's descendants the jews and then after Pentecost to the gentile nations. God always intended to offer salvation to the gentiles, and he did. Zophra, each and every one of your objections is bogus. No church teaches the things you are objecting to. Were you raised atheist, and this is the rant your atheist friends taught you in school? What garbage!

From JK - " The day will come that you will have to stand before King Jesus seated on his throne. He will ask you why you were so faithless and resistant to the truth of the Word. What will you say in that day and hour?" I cant speak for others... but i will say "You are a f*****g monster. The pain, suffering and cruelty you inflicted upon billions of people is incalculable - and your believers directly caused the vast majority of it. F**k you, you evil piece of twisted s**t" I would then try, in vein, to beat this disgusting f**k to death, knowing it wont work - but at least i can go to hell knowing that i wasn't as evil as god and his followers.

Ben, if you say that, you will be held accountable for that on top of everything else you have done that is wrong. Your mistake is that you are blaming God for sin and evil in the world. He is not the active agency of sin and evil. Blame the devil for that, not God. You should hate the devil and not hate God.

There's no truth in the word. If the bible is true, can you please demonstrate it in a scientific setting with actual evidence? If god is all knowing, why would he even ask anyone anything? I would ask why he would create a book with thousands of contradictions in it? Why create a book that directly contradicts every scientific finding? The bible says the earth is flat. It's not. The bible says that there's a firmament in the sky. There's not. The bible says bats are birds. The bible says the moon is its own source of light. The bible says if you want striped cattle and sheep, put them in front of striped things while mating and they will produce striped offspring. If you know anything about genetics, that's the silliest thing ever written. Why did god say that he created Adam out of mud and magic, when science shows we have common ancestors with certain chimps? We share 98.6% DNA in common with certain species of chimps. Is god trying to trick us?

Who ever said the earth is flat?

Job 38:14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal, its features stand out like those of a garment. Have you even read your bible? It is utterly moronic.

the clay under the seal takes on the imprint of the seal. Creation has the imprint of the hand of God. There is nothing in that verse that says the earth is flat.

Clay stamped under a seal is flat. Its features stand out like those of a garment. A garment of clothing is flat. Do you know of any spherical garments? You can lie to yourself all you want. But, you are making yourself sound quite unintelligent. JK

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and you are a tantrum-throwing child in an adult body... Since you don't respect me or my opinions and replies, I will not swap blogs with you. Figure all of this out for yourself. I am not obliged to reply to your insults and abuse. So shut up.

I don’t care about your blog. But, do you honestly believe everything in the Bible? There’s a story with a talking donkey in the Bible. There are fairies 🧚‍♀️ in the Bible. Witches, wizards, zombies, angels, unicorns 🦄, etc. are in the Bible. The Bible says to use feces that you saw a man poop out to bake your food. Should we kill divorced people? Should we kill children that curse us? Should we kill people for working on the sabbath, even just moving sticks? If we look at a woman with lust should we pluck our eyes out? Can you move a mountain with prayer alone and faith the size of a mustard seed? Forgive me if I don’t hold my breath as you try.

Terd, when you calm down and stop throwing a literary tantrum here, I will deal with your objections. In every reply, you throw out insults and the spittle of your hate. I am not obliged in the cause of missions to expose myself to your abuse. As far as the chimp DNA question you raised goes, read further down to look at my reply to biology teacher Zophra about that. So grow up a bit, and stop throwing tantrums that would embarrass a 5 y.o. Even a 5 y.o. knows better than to flail about in a screaming rage like you are doing here.

How come the more people think about some made up end-of-the-world scenario, instead of caring about the actual truth they live in? It doesn't surprise me that the very same people care greatly about clumps of cells, yet are outragingly ignorant towards nonhuman animals and their suffering, as if it was somehow not relevant. Science, the bad and cold hearted science, tells us the exact opposite. Hm, wonder who I'll listen to...

dc, I somehow feel this was pointed at me. To answer your comment, Jesus said to occupy (meaning to stay busy) until he comes. Nobody is supposed to retreat to the mountain top so they can better watch the eastern sky for his appearing. Myself personally I continue teaching the word as best as possible, continue to support the local food banks taking food off my table to feed the hungry, and continue to provide traveler's aid to stranded hitchhikers that show up at the overpass at the interstate a mile away. Some of them have had their clothes & stuff stolen by other hitchhikers so they are standing under the overpass in their boxer shorts. Someone like that you immediately take to the W-mart and buy clothes and food for them so they may continue their journey. I have put up some of them at personal expense at the local Motel-6. You are good at dishing out your high standards here, d.c. Okay, when was the last time you did anything for anyone other than yourself or your family? Do you care about the actual truth you live in? Examples, please...

I don't owe you any justification. Neither do you owe me - and we can literally just make up whatever we want here, as there's no means of proving it is the truth, unless it made it into some kind of media. But, yeah, you're such a good christian ... that you wanna hear? Seems so. High standards? No ... basic reason. Of course, a clump of cells is by no means more important, or more worthy of protection, than a developed animal is ...whatever this has to do with hitchhikers or foodbanks...

dish it out, but can't take it... yes, you should justify your statements... Your "truth" is a compassionless indifference to your fellow human beings in need. What a joke that you have tried to take the high moral ground twice in this particular blog-swap. DC, you need to get saved. Deal with it. Jesus is coming soon, soon, soon. I will answer my question posed to you on your behalf since you won't give me a straight answer: "No, jknbt, I haven't done anything to help anyone but myself & my family. Frankly, I am filled with indifference to people who are hurting in their hour of need."

Terd, you have studied science & chemistry, at least on the high school level. You require eye-witness proof to accept anything. Okay, when was the last time you saw a naked proton? Science tells us that all atoms are made up of protons, neutrons, and electrons. A naked proton cannot exist outside of a supercollider in operation. Nobody has ever seen one. Yet you believe they exist. This belief is based on faith and not any sort of eye witness experience you have had. You believe protons exist because someone has confidently told you about them, and you accepted their testimony. Terd, you are a person of faith also. Deal with it.

I am a Biology teacher. I'll take this one. I know the components of an atom exist because various experiments were done in several fields of science to prove their existence. Theses experiments were repeated which led to models of the atom and the Atomic Theory being made.(reading on this: https://www.space.com/how-did-we-discover-atoms.html) This is not faith. You are basing faith on "it can't been seen" when it should be "it has no evidence." What evidence is there for your God except a book written in the Bronze Age by a nomadic tribal group?

Zophra, whenever I have cornered a scientist trying to convince them of faith, they always fall back on the most extreme standard of proof, namely, "I won't believe it until I have seen it with my own eyes". Hmm, it looks like you have put up a convenient dodge here. You can't have it both ways. All of the evidence you cited is relativistic and depends on assumptions. Show me a naked proton if you are so convinced of your opinions. You can't, so kindly pls stop playing dodgeball with me here. About your other objection about lack of evidence, the proofs of Christianity and the bible are 1) fulfilled prophecies, and 2) changed lives. Go to GotQuestions.org with your hard questions for thorough, well-written answers. There are other conservative bible apologetics sites out there if you prefer. The Christian conversion experience is quite real for the genuine convert. There are countless examples of people becoming new creatures in Christ coming out of drug addiction, alcoholism, violence, or whatever to become wonderful Christian people full of love and good works with stable moral lives for life. You don't get that sort of change with humanistic psychology.

What scientists have you been talking to? I have been in research for years and have never heard anyone only rely on sight - shoot, my concentration of study is in Biochemistry - and that's nothing that can be seen with the eye. Have you see Abraham Lincoln with your own eyes? No. Yet there is a wealth of proof he existed. Not so with God.... or choose your god, there are so many. 1. I have already addressed the "prophecies". 2. Changed lives can be found in ANY religion, AA, NA, social group, advanced education, adoption, etc. etc. Correlation is not always causation. A good social support group is important for change - religious or not.

Zophra, the last blog-type discussion with a PhD-level scientist like this ended that way... He escalated to the point of saying he would not believe it unless he saw it with his own eyes. I told him the testimony of a breathtaking medically verified miracle that happened to a friend of mine. He simply would not accept it without direct personal experience of the same. Sorry, but God is not going to put on a private miracle show to win anyone. After accepting him on his terms, personal miracles are possible by faith. For the record, I do believe in the existence of protons and Abraham Lincoln. There is a wealth of proof that Jesus was here on earth. There is more documentation of the historical Jesus than documentation that exists for Julius Caesar. Nobody disputes the existence of Caesar. continued

Zophra, As for changed lives, take a look: https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/faith-angola-prison Christianity has turned the most deadly maximum security prison in the country into a church and seminary. Murderers have become converts, seminary students, and evangelists. Some of them are living wonderful highly moral lives for God even in the most extreme of circumstances. You don't see this with other religions or the humanistic psychology-based social service groups like you mention. Quoting the article: "At Angola prisoners find sanctuary in the church, and in the seminary in particular. They describe their religious experiences as “cathartic,” “liberating,” “healing,” and “precious.” Many describe the Angola church as providing them with the first opportunity in their lives to deal with their past and not be destroyed by it. Faith at America’s toughest prison plays exactly the role Jesus said it should play: it tends to the most vulnerable, serves the sick and dying, and heals the brokenhearted through acts of loving kindness. It is a model not only for other prisons, but for the church at large."

Friend, the most convincing argument for Christianity & the Bible is fulfilled prophecy. Over 300 alone were fulfilled by the coming of Christ and the cross. Have you ever investigated the questions you raise objectively and fairly for yourself, Mr. Humanist Scholar, or do you "take it on faith" that the doctrines and dogmas taught by the archbishop of Humanism are to be accepted without challenge or scrutiny? No, you say, why bother, huh? The prophecies that apply to the current day and hour that are currently being fulfilled all have to do with the predictions of the End Times Apostasy when the formerly Christian world falls off the cliff into the worst sorts of moral decay & corruption. Sounds like the modern day, huh? The next events on the prophetic calendar are the Rapture, Tribulation, and Second Coming. I won't try to educate you here. If you are intellectually honest enough to look into these matters, go to Got Questions . org, Your objections are skillfully dealt with there.

Really take a look at the "prophecies" that were fulfilled. They are taken out of context, written after the fact (gospel Matthew is crazy with this), and are often non-sensical. Really read and compare. I spent many many Sunday sermons reading through the Bible while being made to go to church; I have read each and every one of these "prophecies" - have you? Hell, I'll even make it easy for you; here is a list of the "prophecies" and "fulfillments" from a Christian site with links to the verses. https://parish.rcdow.org.uk/swisscottage/wp-content/uploads/sites/52/2014/11/44-Prophecies-Jesus-Christ-Fulfilled.pdf

strange that you cite this reference, Zophra, your link just confirmed my thesis.... there are hundreds more fulfilled prophecies out there. You look them up. I have learned not to try to convince people like you in a blog like this. Convince yourself since it is your eternal soul that is at stake here.

I know I just mentioned that I can even USED a Christian reference to argue my point. I have looked them up. I know the Bible inside and out. Okay... here we go. Let's just take the first one. Genesis 3:15: And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring[a] and hers; he will crush[b] your head, and you will strike his heel.” That is God talking to a serpent and it's offspring. Somehow that is a prophecy that Jesus will come to save. Bit of a stretch, eh? They are all like this. Also, do you really think you can MAKE yourself believe something? I find that to be troubling. I can not MAKE myself believe my eternal soul is in danger etc. anymore than I could convince you there are monsters in the closet. :(

"The Serpent" is a nickname like "Mack the Knife". No, the bible doesn't say that snakes talk, this is a metaphor. Satan was a beautiful angel before he fell. Jesus' cross was put in a hole on Golgatha. The name comes from Goliath of Gath, hence, GOL-iath of GATHA. Goliath was of the lineage of the hybrid monstrosities mentioned in Genesis 6, all children of Satan and serpent-seed people. The cross in effect crushed the skull of Goliath that young David buried in the mountains of Moriah. At the same time, an iron spike was driven through Jesus' heel (ouch). This prophecy was literally fulfilled. Nope, not a stretch at all... this happened exactly as the scripture said it would. The Holy Spirit had to help me to believe this one. After seeing the truth of the matter, I willingly accepted it. It would be a stretch not to believe it after being more clearly instructed in the matter. The same way, I have no problem with the other prophecies. The bible has to be read in its cultural context allowing for metaphors.

Zophra, I think you are under conviction. Good for you. If you want clarification on any of the other scriptures you posted, bring them on. I will be glad to comment like this. But read them with a heart that is capable of belief, okay? That is all I ask. And no, I can't argue anyone into belief to make them believe something. All I can do is give a faithful and fair answer to reasonable questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiS4WP48fmY

I went and watched it, Nice.

Don't cast your pearl before swine jk nbt.

yes, there is a lot of distressed oinking going on here... My fav scripture for that is Ps. 2:2, "oh why do the heathen rage"...These people are people of conscience, or they would not have bothered to put up their objections. In an open blog like this, questions like they pose are fair. Their questions deserve a reasonable answer from a person of conscience like me. I have provided that. This is fair of me to do so. To do less would be to disrespect them by effectively saying their questions are too baseless to deserve a rational response. The only rule here seems to be not to take personal shots, give out insults, or be hateful. Again, completely reasonable... people that fall back on insults are cornered and don't have anything intelligent to say anyway. And p.s., thanks Panda editors, for letting a discussion like this run its course. You will get a lot of advertising revenue from this, even if the discussion is more lively than most of your posts normally are.

Terd, people who don't have anything intelligent to say always fall back on insults. The insults you have peppered your reply with amount to a concession that you don't know what you are talking about. So take a look a GotQuestions.org before you go blasting away with your hate-filled speech. You might learn something. You should at least learn to be more tolerant and accepting of people who do not believe like you. The hate you have shown and the insults you have spewed out are not very convincing arguments.

Yes Raven I agree.

At the end of the day someone will hate someone for something whether religion or race. I myself am Christian but I let atheists live peacefully. It's sad to see that a hole Christians can't follow our own rules and love everyone

Clatgineer, if you knew the cure for cancer, and you were too polite to share the secret with your neighbor dying of cancer, it would be very unloving, even hateful. You say, "no, let them die in peace, I don't want to upset them".... I know the cure for sin. It is the Jesus of the Bible. It is not hate on my part to share the truth and to let these people know there is a way of escape. To keep the solution to myself and not say anything would be a hateful act.

Sin is fictional. The supernatural jesus is fictional. If you had a conspiracy theory relative tell you that they had the cure for cancer, and you knew that they had no college degree, and a miniscule understanding of science, would you take their cancer treatment? What other evidence free beliefs do you hold, JK? Did trump win the 2020 election? Is bigfoot real? Unicorns? Fairies?

Terd, you are too obnoxious, unreasonable, and unteachable for me to waste my time swapping blogs with you.

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Raven, you are way out of line to tell me I should not comment in an open forum like this, Raven. Terd threw down the glove. It is fair play that I picked it up. If you are so fragile that this offends you, stay away. This is not pretentious. Keep your insults to yourself, by the way.

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Raven, I AM NOT A PRETENTIOUS A-HOLE. Raven, you are way out of line to correct me here about commenting in an open forum. Stay away if it offends you. Terd threw down the glove, I am not afraid to pick it up. The fact that he is unreasonably unteachable and cannot be convinced means he is in the wrong, not me.

I didn't say you were, I was pointing out that many people of our faith come across like that.

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Take this advice really seriously. Apply for a bible study with the Jehovah's witnesses, go to jw.org and fill in an application for a bible study, if you think you know the truth. Best tip you'll ever get in life: Try to be more humble, for the simple reason that you might, just MIGHT be wrong. You come off as very presumptuous and overly self-confident.

I study the bible. Do you? You want to do a bible session with me? When you point a finger at me, 3 are pointing right back at you. You should be more humble. Jw.org is trash. I have looked into how they quote mine from scientists and take their words and works out of context. I have watched videos of scientists saying that jw.org is lying about my work and they do not approve. Do some research your own self. The jw are evil and they practice shunning if you try to leave the organization or don't follow their rules. Do you know how many failed end times prophecies they have made? Dozens. In the rules of christianity, they are false prophets. My aunt was a social worker here in San Francisco for decades. She told me that the jw have more child rape and cover-up here in San Francisco than the catholic church. Do you know about the child rapists in jw? There's an entire episode of Leah Remini's show about how bad the jw are: https://youtu.be/yzdeGe5Im90

Amen, brother! "Just in case" - well, what I see here in this reality contradicts about everything in the bible. What I see in reality is enough information to make the best and most reasonable decisions, in whatever regard, that I am capable of - and one thing never is part of that, and this thing is obedience. Put very short: if I shall follow a rule, convince me with facts, otherwise - don't waste your time trying, witness (this aims at J-A Laine). I may not be the smartest guy on earth, I may be wrong several times a day, but I'm neither naive nor obedient.There are things that convinced me in the past, and other things will in the future, but never, never ever, not a single time, will I ever accept anything as real JUST BECAUSE. The bible's problem, however, is that any justification in it never exceeds "just because" - and is sometimes even worse. No, thanks, being a secularist not only serves me better - it also allows decide more reasonable and, ethically, better.