Professor Asked His Students What Would They Have Done In Slavery Times If They Were A White Southerner, Students Delivered
Robert P. George, a Princeton University professor, recently asked his students what their position would have been if they were white and living in the South before the abolition of slavery in 1865. Of course, the students said that they would be abolitionists.
So, they would have all been against the state of culture, society, and politics of the time, namely against slavery, claiming that they would have worked tirelessly to oppose it.
However, Prof. George doubted such an answer. And he explained why in a 5-piece Twitter thread that has since gone viral.
More info: twitter.com
One of the main tactics of teaching students is asking them challenging and thought provoking question
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So, Princeton Professor R.P. George asked his students a hypothetical: what would their stance be as a white person in the South before the abolition of slavery?
Their answer ended up being the right thing to say, but not one that would be likely given the context
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Professor Robert P. George is an American legal scholar, political philosopher, and public intellectual serving as the McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence and Director of the James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions at Princeton University who lectures on constitutional interpretation, civil liberties, philosophy of law, and political philosophy.
His doubt in his students’ claims was based on considering the context of the times. Prof. George explained that it was very likely that many of them would have gone along with the established system, and, in fact, would even happily have benefited from it.
That was because when someone goes against that which is considered the norm, they immediately become an outcast. This comes in the form of becoming unpopular among peers and even being abandoned by friends, being loathed by the influential figures and powers of the day, and even being denied professional opportunities.
The thread sparked a healthy discussion, with some sharing how they do an analogous exercise
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Others discussed the question, its nuances, and shared their thoughts on the matter
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While it’s easy to claim what one would have done, it’s not so easy taking on that claim and the risk, and even danger, that comes along with it. After all, it was quite likely that nobody would risk their well-being, their loved ones, and even their lives if they can just live through it as neutrally as possible until it’s no longer a thing.
The thread gained a significant amount of attention online, garnering over 6,000 retweets and nearly 22,000 likes on Twitter, and sparking a discussion in the comments section among those who also tried asking an analogous question. The tweets also found themselves on Imgur where they got another couple of thousand upvotes with 127,000 views.
What are your thoughts on this? Let us know in the comment section below!
We tend to look at history through a modern lens, which is a mistake. We are the products of our time, conditioned to think and behave in specific ways in order to matriculate our way through society without losing our place in it. As a woman, in the mid-nineteenth century I wouldn’t even have had a voice, much less a vote, in pushing for change. I would’ve been outcast for it, at a time when few women who weren’t born rich could make a successful living on their own. Being so powerless and dependent, I probably would’ve been careful never to voice my beliefs because, if my husband or father didn’t share them, he was legally free to thoroughly beat them out of me, his chattel. So, though we like to think we’d be heroes and stand up for others, chances are we wouldn’t have had the courage to take that risk. We would’ve held back and left it up to the few truly brave individuals to take those risks and take the beatings, imprisonment, and disenfranchisement for it (repeated often, to try and break them) by those who benefit greatly from the status quo. Sound familiar? Yeah, it still happens today. Eventually the rest of us cowards reach our limit of what we’ll allow to happen, and join the heroes whose heads are bloody but unbowed, until we finally represent the majority. That kind of power is necessary to significantly change the status quo, and eventually society itself.
Your statement is extremely well written and has obviously been thoroughly thought through. It's also painfully honest. Thank you for sharing it and I completely agree
Load More Replies...We are not all in outrage of chinese child labor, yet we openly support it because we buy made in china stuff cheap, we don't say let me pay a few extra bucks so a child can have a break today
So true, no-one cares when it suits them. I don't consume/buy animal products, I avoid buying anything from China - I don't even like companies that sell in China because of the awful animal abuse laws there, I avoid high street shops that I've seen exposed as modern day slavery. I consider the environment when shopping...people think I'm extreme - I'm sat here on a phone from China because I wanted the pretty pictures...it suited me
Load More Replies...I *have* stood up for my beliefs. I've refused to just go with the crowd. A person gets teased, called names, made fun of in other ways, unfriended and blocked (if you post it on FB), etc. My mother used to run outside during pass raids (1970s South Africa) and swear at the police.
So many modern equivalents that we're ignoring when assigning ourselves hypothetical historical superiority. What do you do for migrants, homeless, Natives, prisoners? It's easy to say "oh that's terrible" when told of someone's plight but then carry on with your day as if nothing was happening. People back then weren't faced with slaves picking cotton in the fields, just as we today are not faced with sweat shop workers making our clothes. Without a straightforward ethical dilemma, an easy solution, and the steps clearly laid out for us to follow, many people default to doing nothing. It's only when something affects us personally that we stand up and fight.
We all walk past homeless people living on the streets. How many of us stop to ask if/how we can help, or do anything more than (possibly) give them loose change? It's easy to self-justify inaction in the face of injustice.
I don't give directly to homeless people often because it is hard to tell who is in need and who are there scammers. But I do support homeless causes.
Load More Replies...I think it's been that way through out history. We always see things out predecessors have done wrong. In a hundred years or so people will be pointing out faults about us that we don't even realize now. An optimistic view is that it is an evolution of conscious.
And 500,000 years ago not a one of us would have beaten a stranger to death and eaten him because he wasn't our tribe and we were hungry. (sarcasm)
And now I know who I wouldn't hang out with 500,000 years ago...
Load More Replies...George is correct. Social mores are presumably held by the majority, or it would not have been a common situation. Judging the past on our present value systems is being ahistorical at best, and downright delusional at worst. That was something I taught every term, in every class. -Rev Dr M, retired history professor
I defo would've been for slavery if I had benefited from it back in those days...I like to think I would've changed my stance eventually since I wouldn't eat the dead bodies of abused, tortured animals now...which is somehow an unpopular lifestyle choice in 2020 lmao but without getting out in the world, seeing others as humans and learning that the world doesn't exist in my own head only I wouldn't have changed my mindset. Very much doubt that would have been an opportunity back then so I could see me just being some dumbass confederate not understanding how the slaves can't see how good they have it haha
The key is that, like the wealthy telling us today that we may one day become rich, rhetoric in the South was of the Slavocracy speaking of the potential of every white male to possibly become slave owners, which was as much about economic wealth among whites, as it was about social control and authority among all Americans. Even the uneducated landless white poor accepted this tripe and supported the cause, and defended it after the war ended.
Load More Replies...In reality, most would have barely given a thought to slavery, because the vast majority of people had little to do with it. Most did not own them. They may see them now and again in the streets and such, but, it wouldn't have been anything they really cared or thought about. For most, the whole issue was low hanging fruit.
Which is the case with child labour and other problems today. And that's why it is important to spread awareness.
Load More Replies...There are thousands of ways to change the world. One really easy one is to stop buying fast fashion. It is poorly made, often with child labor, under poor working conditions, and it is terrible for the environment. Buy 1 quality item instead of 10 crappy ones. Remember the companies that allow tragedies like this happen. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/wal-mart-bangladesh-factory-in-deadly-fire-made-clothes-without-our-knowledge/
Buying better clothing doesn't put you at risk though or at odds with mainstream society.
Load More Replies...If you were from the south and had slaves or servants. It would be a natural way of life. People in the 21st century don't have the same mind set as people 100 plus years ago. For the students, it was an exercise in participation,or maybe provocation. My grandfather was born in 1883 in North Carolina. He and my grandmother were the nicest people on the face of this earth till their passing in the mid 70's. They experienced a life we will never have. I cry for the f(*&ed up world my grand children are inheriting.
And yet there were a lot of people fighting against slavery, even though owning slaves was "a way of life". Even then, some people saw the injustice and stood up against it. It's because humans have empathy and can put themselves into another person's place. I dare say MOSt people would have been uncomfortable as children witnessing a severe beating or punishment of a black person, but the empathy would have been taught out of them. Yet some still kept it and acted according to it. We can be more than just our upbringing.
Load More Replies...Someone uses the example of the prolife discussion to compare it to slavery and the Holocaust. That is a completely different subject. Abortion is a choice for the woman carrying a non conscious being to keep ownership of her own life. Slavery and racism are examples of humans suppressing other conscious and living human beings to benefit from the outcome. And we're not even close to losing that trait. Wearing a prolife t-shirt is definitely controversial, and it resembles the judgement you would get, but that's where it ends.
I think that comparison is apt, precisely because it is a less contentious issue now than slavery was back then. So if you can't even stand up constantly for this "smaller" issue today, what makes you think you would have stood up for the bigger one back then?
Load More Replies...Sadly, hardly anyone can really know how he'd have reacted to the mistakes of earlier times in these earlier times ... but ... but this also may generate hope - the progress of society, as a whole, has set a different standard of decency. We, as a whole, went on, became better. But, there are still things that need to end - all the things causing exploitation, cruelty towards helpless, total ignorance of said helpless' suffering, ... When I was in school, it still was normal that other students, with teachers laughingly joining in, ridiculed you for being a vegetarian. Well, me. Some might say this isn't of the same importance like the treatment of humans, but ... there are different things to it. Humans may reward you for treating them less s****y, other animals won't ... humans suffer for meat production, ... but this isn't what this is about - I sometimes even saw and heard people making fun of ANY and EVERY decision that was made according to ethical viewpoints...
... and not just of the stuff they didn't agree with. "Haha, you care about something!"? Yes, that. Still a long way to go, just that we went on from then doesn't mean we're anywhere near done. But our willingness to sacrifice something for the sake of doing it like we feel it's right seems not to be en vogue, instead complaining about minor stuff is a thing today, like masks that "take away our freedom", or the paranoia about so-called vegan propaganda, or the complaints about ... people of a different colour or something. Religions, on the other hand, are overprotected today, every bit of criticism will result in being accused of being a racist and trying to hide it under the blanket of criticism, as if it were right to have atheists burning for eternity simply for not believing stuff. We gotta take care what we do and how we debate! It's about time, aimlessly just opposing what is most repulsive won't do it any further than we already are...
Load More Replies...Trouble is, when a social problem is systematic, individual actions don't always count for much, while collective/policy ones can. I get that the U.S. is all about the single/team superhero mythology, but in reality (actual events we can look to for evidence), change unfortunately has to be more multi-pronged, garnering support from various pillars of society. Example: if a sole, unknown teenage actress complained publicly about the sexual exploitation of powerful movie producer, would that change anything? Now, how seriously would you listen to a collective of seasoned, powerful industry actresses coming forward with the same story? Or, what happened to those non-Jews in Nazi-occupied countries who wore the Star of David in solidarity? What use is having your allies also heaped up in gas chambers, leaving fewer to speak for, or witness, injustice? A person's religion, truth, race, or gender doesn't protect nonconforming individuals when a systematic value runs contrary to their own.
I disagree. For one thing, individual actions can and have saved lives (the underground railroad, for instance)- that certainly makes a difference to the people saved. The bigger picture is that big policy changes don't happen without widespread support, widespread meaning many individuals.
Load More Replies...I am from ex-communist country, I am 81, so I can remember a lot. People always believe in their own courage and honesty in comparison with their parents and peers . It is total b******t, only war or economics can make change. Abolitionism is a very honest idea, but only war freed slaves, bc they are needed in the North for work in industry and nobody looked at their well-being there after the war. Sometimes it was worse than at plantations, but nobody cares, b.c. it is their free will, there is nobody other (wiser, richer) to sue out exploitation and there isn´t common will to do it.
... one look at the ridiculization-attempts everywhere on BP where animal rights are involved in a manner that exceeds loving the pet who lives at your place tells where the majority would have stood. And, maybe, part of the minority about these issues, too. You easily get tired if you respond to every case of "KiLl It WiTh FiRe111" that any simply spider is, sure, gonna spark - and don't even dare going beyond that, into farming and the atrocities that are tied with it. The basic principle here, I think, is that an ideology and its execution, no matter however dumb, evil and lacking of rational justification it may be, isn't seen as one as long as a majority obeys by it - knowingly, careless or enjoying their own recklessness towards whatever they think is below them for whatever cause.
The professor is wrong. What the students wrote is accurate. The professor asked what the STUDENTS would do. The students are from modern times and have modern values and know the consequences of slavery and what history has taught us. From their own perspective they would do exactly what they stated they would. Granted they're not taking into account the many obstacles they would face. But the values and knowledge the students have is important.
I'm pretty sure I would have been against slavery. The reason for that is my father was racist and my grandfather was a former KKK minister. I was raised by a racist person and yet didn't grow up to be racist myself.
I know myself well enough to know I wouldn't go against the crowd. It has to do with personal history and the fear of retaliation. It doesn't make it right, but at least I know why I would have gone along to get along.
We are all a product of our times. Even those who are 'forward thinking' may eventually be seen as old fashioned and wrong. But it always takes a small number of people to push the rest of us into accepting the right path. It is often a dangerous and painful path for those who realise the truth first. Most of us would have looked on and done nothing about slavery and allowed the Nazis to kill the disabled etc. NB whilst we know NOW about the death camps specifically set up to kill communists, Slavs, Jews and Gypsies it was not known THEN either to the Allies or even to the people of Germany. The Germans were told they were sent to 'work camps' or being 'deported' And, given the hatred for these groups in Europe at that time, people didn't bother to question that. After the war Germans were required to go to film showings which documented what had happened in these camps, VERY gruesome. This was the only way, thought the Allies, that the German people would believe it..
I'm reminding of a story passed down by one of my relatives that fought in WW2 and was part of the liberation of the concentration camps. At one camp they questioned a man who owned a farm in eyesight of the camp, and demanded to know why he did not speak out against what was going on there. He cried, and said that his neighbor had spoken up and his entire family was taken to the camp and presumably killed. It wasn't just Jews who were sent to the camps, and people often forget that. There is some hard truth to the statement that it is better to be the right hand of the devil then in his path. People have more self preservation when faced with a large force opposed to them then people think. If your choice is to stand up and lose everything in your life, up to and including your life - a lot of people SAY that they would act, but the hard reality is that we have a biological drive to save ourselves.
For those who think we are beyond racist laws, look towards the treatment of Native Americans in the US and in North and South America in general. There are no laws or actiosn SPECIFICALLY targetting people of African, Asian, or other descent, EXCEPT Native Americans. What happened with the Native Americans in the US region that we think was terrible, but in the past, is happening now, ONGOING, in Brazil. And as another commenter pointed out, we have just shifted using people to other countries. And a question: Not every Southerner was a wealthy person with a plantation that had slaves were they?
It goes back to, freedom being another word for nothing left to lose. I argue that those who DID defy unjust social norms were already marginal in significant ways. John Brown and Free State of Jones are examples of an individual and community which did NOT identify with the dominant culture and were not economically invested. It is easier to put your life on the line when your motivation is purely moral or self-defense, when the society one is opposing is truly Other; one that never offered acceptance or affirmation to begin with. Or, when the dominant culture has always been judged and condemned as immoral and unjust, as is the case with John Brown.
For the reasons he said I wouldn’t have openly been an abolitionist, but I would have secretly participated in the Underground Railroad and helped slaves escape to freedom as much as I could. I would actually allow my house to be one of the safe houses slaves would go to along their route. I know I’d still have to save face in the daytime, but by night I’d do whatever I could to save them. I wouldn’t even want to own slaves. I can pick my own cotton.
I don't think you would do that, unless you are doing something comparably heroic in your actual life. But don't tell if you do! That could get you in serious trouble, right? ;-)
Load More Replies...Well if you were white living around that time in the south i think that person having lived there and grown up there would have probably grown with slaves around so there is a 80% chance that guy or woman would have owned a slave.
Less than 25% of all southern whites owned any slaves and less than half of that owned more than 5. Most did not, could not, and would not...and yet they still defended the cause.
Load More Replies...His students can't imagine a world without Twitter, and he wants them to imagine what life in the 1800's was like? Good luck with that
Try to go vegan, and explain you are against the use and abuse of non-human animals. All the 5 consequences apply! (i think in 100 years we will think it is appalling what we are doing to animals right now)
I actually agree. I'm not a vegan, not even a vegetarian, but I understand the amount of backlash someone can get for standing up for their believes. I always try to accomodate vegan friends - I'd cook or bake so they can participate and I always try to find products without animal-parts though I very much like milk and dairy (cheese!) and I'm sorry, I'm just not at the place yet where I can change my habits completely. I do go the "at least have the animals have a good life before death"-route, so that's my small contribution. The way we treat animals that serve us as food is disgusting, so at the VERY LEAST we should eat less of them and keep them in humane and appropriate living-conditions. And yes - the exact same goes for humans we exploit. We might need the workers in Bangladesh to sew our clothes or the workers to mine the ore for our phones - at LEAST they should be paid fairly and we need to stop wasting the material
Load More Replies...I think the past should remain the past. Most likely I would be a coward. I put myself in a situation that I am in an extremely Sharia country and with my presence, a woman is stoned. What do I do? I would be scared for my life, maybe even turn away, would not look. This is terrible savagery and not justice. I will never go to such strange countries, no matter how rich they are. It is terrible that there are terrible things that are happening in the world. And in my country, too, I don’t think anyone is ideal. But in my country, I intervened in fights between spouses. That is, it turns out I am hiding in the majority, even if I do not think that this is fair.
I would probably ( this might not actually be true ) I'd try to help, but while making sure that the people with slavery don't notice, that way I can get them to trust me and give me information to help the slaves. When they find out, I might get hanged but oh well.
So, you check that the clothes that you're buying come from companies that treat their employees well, using fabrics that are treated with non-toxic dyes? You only buy fairly traded products? Or do you just buy what's cheap and colorful like everyone else? Do you buy fair trade chocolate and coffee, because otherwise you're supporting forced child labor? We like to kid ourselves that we're different, but it's nonsense. Nobody is prepared to give up their convenience and comfort, and there's a lot of talk and excuses, but no real action.
Load More Replies...Your right to swing your arm ends 1mm before it hits my face. Your right to support a proud white supremacist doesn't mean I can't tell you to stick it. It just means you can't get arrested for it.
Load More Replies...No, would be more like being a male and standing up for female rights in a country that have barely any or being straight and standing up for gay rights somewhere where that choice could get you killed, jailed or ostracized by your entire social circle. Pro lifers aren't victims, put the violin away lol
Load More Replies...We tend to look at history through a modern lens, which is a mistake. We are the products of our time, conditioned to think and behave in specific ways in order to matriculate our way through society without losing our place in it. As a woman, in the mid-nineteenth century I wouldn’t even have had a voice, much less a vote, in pushing for change. I would’ve been outcast for it, at a time when few women who weren’t born rich could make a successful living on their own. Being so powerless and dependent, I probably would’ve been careful never to voice my beliefs because, if my husband or father didn’t share them, he was legally free to thoroughly beat them out of me, his chattel. So, though we like to think we’d be heroes and stand up for others, chances are we wouldn’t have had the courage to take that risk. We would’ve held back and left it up to the few truly brave individuals to take those risks and take the beatings, imprisonment, and disenfranchisement for it (repeated often, to try and break them) by those who benefit greatly from the status quo. Sound familiar? Yeah, it still happens today. Eventually the rest of us cowards reach our limit of what we’ll allow to happen, and join the heroes whose heads are bloody but unbowed, until we finally represent the majority. That kind of power is necessary to significantly change the status quo, and eventually society itself.
Your statement is extremely well written and has obviously been thoroughly thought through. It's also painfully honest. Thank you for sharing it and I completely agree
Load More Replies...We are not all in outrage of chinese child labor, yet we openly support it because we buy made in china stuff cheap, we don't say let me pay a few extra bucks so a child can have a break today
So true, no-one cares when it suits them. I don't consume/buy animal products, I avoid buying anything from China - I don't even like companies that sell in China because of the awful animal abuse laws there, I avoid high street shops that I've seen exposed as modern day slavery. I consider the environment when shopping...people think I'm extreme - I'm sat here on a phone from China because I wanted the pretty pictures...it suited me
Load More Replies...I *have* stood up for my beliefs. I've refused to just go with the crowd. A person gets teased, called names, made fun of in other ways, unfriended and blocked (if you post it on FB), etc. My mother used to run outside during pass raids (1970s South Africa) and swear at the police.
So many modern equivalents that we're ignoring when assigning ourselves hypothetical historical superiority. What do you do for migrants, homeless, Natives, prisoners? It's easy to say "oh that's terrible" when told of someone's plight but then carry on with your day as if nothing was happening. People back then weren't faced with slaves picking cotton in the fields, just as we today are not faced with sweat shop workers making our clothes. Without a straightforward ethical dilemma, an easy solution, and the steps clearly laid out for us to follow, many people default to doing nothing. It's only when something affects us personally that we stand up and fight.
We all walk past homeless people living on the streets. How many of us stop to ask if/how we can help, or do anything more than (possibly) give them loose change? It's easy to self-justify inaction in the face of injustice.
I don't give directly to homeless people often because it is hard to tell who is in need and who are there scammers. But I do support homeless causes.
Load More Replies...I think it's been that way through out history. We always see things out predecessors have done wrong. In a hundred years or so people will be pointing out faults about us that we don't even realize now. An optimistic view is that it is an evolution of conscious.
And 500,000 years ago not a one of us would have beaten a stranger to death and eaten him because he wasn't our tribe and we were hungry. (sarcasm)
And now I know who I wouldn't hang out with 500,000 years ago...
Load More Replies...George is correct. Social mores are presumably held by the majority, or it would not have been a common situation. Judging the past on our present value systems is being ahistorical at best, and downright delusional at worst. That was something I taught every term, in every class. -Rev Dr M, retired history professor
I defo would've been for slavery if I had benefited from it back in those days...I like to think I would've changed my stance eventually since I wouldn't eat the dead bodies of abused, tortured animals now...which is somehow an unpopular lifestyle choice in 2020 lmao but without getting out in the world, seeing others as humans and learning that the world doesn't exist in my own head only I wouldn't have changed my mindset. Very much doubt that would have been an opportunity back then so I could see me just being some dumbass confederate not understanding how the slaves can't see how good they have it haha
The key is that, like the wealthy telling us today that we may one day become rich, rhetoric in the South was of the Slavocracy speaking of the potential of every white male to possibly become slave owners, which was as much about economic wealth among whites, as it was about social control and authority among all Americans. Even the uneducated landless white poor accepted this tripe and supported the cause, and defended it after the war ended.
Load More Replies...In reality, most would have barely given a thought to slavery, because the vast majority of people had little to do with it. Most did not own them. They may see them now and again in the streets and such, but, it wouldn't have been anything they really cared or thought about. For most, the whole issue was low hanging fruit.
Which is the case with child labour and other problems today. And that's why it is important to spread awareness.
Load More Replies...There are thousands of ways to change the world. One really easy one is to stop buying fast fashion. It is poorly made, often with child labor, under poor working conditions, and it is terrible for the environment. Buy 1 quality item instead of 10 crappy ones. Remember the companies that allow tragedies like this happen. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/wal-mart-bangladesh-factory-in-deadly-fire-made-clothes-without-our-knowledge/
Buying better clothing doesn't put you at risk though or at odds with mainstream society.
Load More Replies...If you were from the south and had slaves or servants. It would be a natural way of life. People in the 21st century don't have the same mind set as people 100 plus years ago. For the students, it was an exercise in participation,or maybe provocation. My grandfather was born in 1883 in North Carolina. He and my grandmother were the nicest people on the face of this earth till their passing in the mid 70's. They experienced a life we will never have. I cry for the f(*&ed up world my grand children are inheriting.
And yet there were a lot of people fighting against slavery, even though owning slaves was "a way of life". Even then, some people saw the injustice and stood up against it. It's because humans have empathy and can put themselves into another person's place. I dare say MOSt people would have been uncomfortable as children witnessing a severe beating or punishment of a black person, but the empathy would have been taught out of them. Yet some still kept it and acted according to it. We can be more than just our upbringing.
Load More Replies...Someone uses the example of the prolife discussion to compare it to slavery and the Holocaust. That is a completely different subject. Abortion is a choice for the woman carrying a non conscious being to keep ownership of her own life. Slavery and racism are examples of humans suppressing other conscious and living human beings to benefit from the outcome. And we're not even close to losing that trait. Wearing a prolife t-shirt is definitely controversial, and it resembles the judgement you would get, but that's where it ends.
I think that comparison is apt, precisely because it is a less contentious issue now than slavery was back then. So if you can't even stand up constantly for this "smaller" issue today, what makes you think you would have stood up for the bigger one back then?
Load More Replies...Sadly, hardly anyone can really know how he'd have reacted to the mistakes of earlier times in these earlier times ... but ... but this also may generate hope - the progress of society, as a whole, has set a different standard of decency. We, as a whole, went on, became better. But, there are still things that need to end - all the things causing exploitation, cruelty towards helpless, total ignorance of said helpless' suffering, ... When I was in school, it still was normal that other students, with teachers laughingly joining in, ridiculed you for being a vegetarian. Well, me. Some might say this isn't of the same importance like the treatment of humans, but ... there are different things to it. Humans may reward you for treating them less s****y, other animals won't ... humans suffer for meat production, ... but this isn't what this is about - I sometimes even saw and heard people making fun of ANY and EVERY decision that was made according to ethical viewpoints...
... and not just of the stuff they didn't agree with. "Haha, you care about something!"? Yes, that. Still a long way to go, just that we went on from then doesn't mean we're anywhere near done. But our willingness to sacrifice something for the sake of doing it like we feel it's right seems not to be en vogue, instead complaining about minor stuff is a thing today, like masks that "take away our freedom", or the paranoia about so-called vegan propaganda, or the complaints about ... people of a different colour or something. Religions, on the other hand, are overprotected today, every bit of criticism will result in being accused of being a racist and trying to hide it under the blanket of criticism, as if it were right to have atheists burning for eternity simply for not believing stuff. We gotta take care what we do and how we debate! It's about time, aimlessly just opposing what is most repulsive won't do it any further than we already are...
Load More Replies...Trouble is, when a social problem is systematic, individual actions don't always count for much, while collective/policy ones can. I get that the U.S. is all about the single/team superhero mythology, but in reality (actual events we can look to for evidence), change unfortunately has to be more multi-pronged, garnering support from various pillars of society. Example: if a sole, unknown teenage actress complained publicly about the sexual exploitation of powerful movie producer, would that change anything? Now, how seriously would you listen to a collective of seasoned, powerful industry actresses coming forward with the same story? Or, what happened to those non-Jews in Nazi-occupied countries who wore the Star of David in solidarity? What use is having your allies also heaped up in gas chambers, leaving fewer to speak for, or witness, injustice? A person's religion, truth, race, or gender doesn't protect nonconforming individuals when a systematic value runs contrary to their own.
I disagree. For one thing, individual actions can and have saved lives (the underground railroad, for instance)- that certainly makes a difference to the people saved. The bigger picture is that big policy changes don't happen without widespread support, widespread meaning many individuals.
Load More Replies...I am from ex-communist country, I am 81, so I can remember a lot. People always believe in their own courage and honesty in comparison with their parents and peers . It is total b******t, only war or economics can make change. Abolitionism is a very honest idea, but only war freed slaves, bc they are needed in the North for work in industry and nobody looked at their well-being there after the war. Sometimes it was worse than at plantations, but nobody cares, b.c. it is their free will, there is nobody other (wiser, richer) to sue out exploitation and there isn´t common will to do it.
... one look at the ridiculization-attempts everywhere on BP where animal rights are involved in a manner that exceeds loving the pet who lives at your place tells where the majority would have stood. And, maybe, part of the minority about these issues, too. You easily get tired if you respond to every case of "KiLl It WiTh FiRe111" that any simply spider is, sure, gonna spark - and don't even dare going beyond that, into farming and the atrocities that are tied with it. The basic principle here, I think, is that an ideology and its execution, no matter however dumb, evil and lacking of rational justification it may be, isn't seen as one as long as a majority obeys by it - knowingly, careless or enjoying their own recklessness towards whatever they think is below them for whatever cause.
The professor is wrong. What the students wrote is accurate. The professor asked what the STUDENTS would do. The students are from modern times and have modern values and know the consequences of slavery and what history has taught us. From their own perspective they would do exactly what they stated they would. Granted they're not taking into account the many obstacles they would face. But the values and knowledge the students have is important.
I'm pretty sure I would have been against slavery. The reason for that is my father was racist and my grandfather was a former KKK minister. I was raised by a racist person and yet didn't grow up to be racist myself.
I know myself well enough to know I wouldn't go against the crowd. It has to do with personal history and the fear of retaliation. It doesn't make it right, but at least I know why I would have gone along to get along.
We are all a product of our times. Even those who are 'forward thinking' may eventually be seen as old fashioned and wrong. But it always takes a small number of people to push the rest of us into accepting the right path. It is often a dangerous and painful path for those who realise the truth first. Most of us would have looked on and done nothing about slavery and allowed the Nazis to kill the disabled etc. NB whilst we know NOW about the death camps specifically set up to kill communists, Slavs, Jews and Gypsies it was not known THEN either to the Allies or even to the people of Germany. The Germans were told they were sent to 'work camps' or being 'deported' And, given the hatred for these groups in Europe at that time, people didn't bother to question that. After the war Germans were required to go to film showings which documented what had happened in these camps, VERY gruesome. This was the only way, thought the Allies, that the German people would believe it..
I'm reminding of a story passed down by one of my relatives that fought in WW2 and was part of the liberation of the concentration camps. At one camp they questioned a man who owned a farm in eyesight of the camp, and demanded to know why he did not speak out against what was going on there. He cried, and said that his neighbor had spoken up and his entire family was taken to the camp and presumably killed. It wasn't just Jews who were sent to the camps, and people often forget that. There is some hard truth to the statement that it is better to be the right hand of the devil then in his path. People have more self preservation when faced with a large force opposed to them then people think. If your choice is to stand up and lose everything in your life, up to and including your life - a lot of people SAY that they would act, but the hard reality is that we have a biological drive to save ourselves.
For those who think we are beyond racist laws, look towards the treatment of Native Americans in the US and in North and South America in general. There are no laws or actiosn SPECIFICALLY targetting people of African, Asian, or other descent, EXCEPT Native Americans. What happened with the Native Americans in the US region that we think was terrible, but in the past, is happening now, ONGOING, in Brazil. And as another commenter pointed out, we have just shifted using people to other countries. And a question: Not every Southerner was a wealthy person with a plantation that had slaves were they?
It goes back to, freedom being another word for nothing left to lose. I argue that those who DID defy unjust social norms were already marginal in significant ways. John Brown and Free State of Jones are examples of an individual and community which did NOT identify with the dominant culture and were not economically invested. It is easier to put your life on the line when your motivation is purely moral or self-defense, when the society one is opposing is truly Other; one that never offered acceptance or affirmation to begin with. Or, when the dominant culture has always been judged and condemned as immoral and unjust, as is the case with John Brown.
For the reasons he said I wouldn’t have openly been an abolitionist, but I would have secretly participated in the Underground Railroad and helped slaves escape to freedom as much as I could. I would actually allow my house to be one of the safe houses slaves would go to along their route. I know I’d still have to save face in the daytime, but by night I’d do whatever I could to save them. I wouldn’t even want to own slaves. I can pick my own cotton.
I don't think you would do that, unless you are doing something comparably heroic in your actual life. But don't tell if you do! That could get you in serious trouble, right? ;-)
Load More Replies...Well if you were white living around that time in the south i think that person having lived there and grown up there would have probably grown with slaves around so there is a 80% chance that guy or woman would have owned a slave.
Less than 25% of all southern whites owned any slaves and less than half of that owned more than 5. Most did not, could not, and would not...and yet they still defended the cause.
Load More Replies...His students can't imagine a world without Twitter, and he wants them to imagine what life in the 1800's was like? Good luck with that
Try to go vegan, and explain you are against the use and abuse of non-human animals. All the 5 consequences apply! (i think in 100 years we will think it is appalling what we are doing to animals right now)
I actually agree. I'm not a vegan, not even a vegetarian, but I understand the amount of backlash someone can get for standing up for their believes. I always try to accomodate vegan friends - I'd cook or bake so they can participate and I always try to find products without animal-parts though I very much like milk and dairy (cheese!) and I'm sorry, I'm just not at the place yet where I can change my habits completely. I do go the "at least have the animals have a good life before death"-route, so that's my small contribution. The way we treat animals that serve us as food is disgusting, so at the VERY LEAST we should eat less of them and keep them in humane and appropriate living-conditions. And yes - the exact same goes for humans we exploit. We might need the workers in Bangladesh to sew our clothes or the workers to mine the ore for our phones - at LEAST they should be paid fairly and we need to stop wasting the material
Load More Replies...I think the past should remain the past. Most likely I would be a coward. I put myself in a situation that I am in an extremely Sharia country and with my presence, a woman is stoned. What do I do? I would be scared for my life, maybe even turn away, would not look. This is terrible savagery and not justice. I will never go to such strange countries, no matter how rich they are. It is terrible that there are terrible things that are happening in the world. And in my country, too, I don’t think anyone is ideal. But in my country, I intervened in fights between spouses. That is, it turns out I am hiding in the majority, even if I do not think that this is fair.
I would probably ( this might not actually be true ) I'd try to help, but while making sure that the people with slavery don't notice, that way I can get them to trust me and give me information to help the slaves. When they find out, I might get hanged but oh well.
So, you check that the clothes that you're buying come from companies that treat their employees well, using fabrics that are treated with non-toxic dyes? You only buy fairly traded products? Or do you just buy what's cheap and colorful like everyone else? Do you buy fair trade chocolate and coffee, because otherwise you're supporting forced child labor? We like to kid ourselves that we're different, but it's nonsense. Nobody is prepared to give up their convenience and comfort, and there's a lot of talk and excuses, but no real action.
Load More Replies...Your right to swing your arm ends 1mm before it hits my face. Your right to support a proud white supremacist doesn't mean I can't tell you to stick it. It just means you can't get arrested for it.
Load More Replies...No, would be more like being a male and standing up for female rights in a country that have barely any or being straight and standing up for gay rights somewhere where that choice could get you killed, jailed or ostracized by your entire social circle. Pro lifers aren't victims, put the violin away lol
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