Having some concept that no one should be forced to tell someone what they can do with their own body, and their own medical decisions. If you have any concept of freedom, pro choice is an unavoidable concept . Also, pro choice is not synonymous with pro abortion.

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Kathryn Baylis

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Your last line nailed the whole thing. Abortion is not the issue. Choice is. Don’t want an abortion? You can choose not to have one. In an untenable position that makes having a baby impossible, dangerous, a true burden? You can—-or at least used to be able to—-choose to have a safe abortion and live a more secure life afterward. Because YOU are already viable life, so MUST come FIRST in the equation!

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I've never been fire and brimstone pro-life but like most teenagers I have a vague idea that is was "wrong". Abortion was used as an insult and form of gossip at my school (omg Becca had FIVE abortions!) Usually by people with absolutely no critical thinking skills.

The older I got and the more life experiences I had, the more I realised how awful it would be to be brought into a world that didn't want you.
No friendly faces from the start.

These loads of loving couples waiting to adopt babies are fictional, and the child is going to be either bounced about in the care system, or raised by a mother who didn't want and cannot support the growing child.

Also if we have a boom of unwanted children, we need to invest a hell of a lot of money in foster care, residential homes, healthcare for children born addicted to drugs or alcohol problems, child mental health services, social services, prison services etc....

No one seems to care about the baby once it is born, in fact, it becomes nothing more than a nusience

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Deborah B

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2 years ago

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All these "Don't abort, *we* will adopt your baby" couples, if presented with a child that had severe disabilities, would refuse to take it.

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That was a long, long time ago. There was a time when I was close to becoming an incel, thought that women have the better life and that I am screwed for being born as a guy. But I got smarter, until I was able to put myself in their shoes, realized that we are no different, and all expectations put on both sexes is just a social construct perpetuated by bitter geriatric men.

So it doesn't matter if you are man or woman, your body is your own, when it doesnt behave like expected, you go see a doctor - unwanted pregnancy is no different here. The real question is whether the state should support the people to get the abortion - in the UK, abortions are free, but I dont know if there is a time limit on them

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Leo Domitrix

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2 years ago

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"Bitter geriatric men". I love that phrase!

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I grew up religious, so of course I was fed the whole abortion is murdering babies and adoption is the more humane option spiel. Because of this, I claimed to be pro-life until sometime in college. It wasn't really one specific thing that changed my mind, but it was a combination of things that really started to rub me the wrong way.

The first actually happened while I was in high school. In my youth group, there were two brothers who were adopted by a church couple. They had been through the ringer in foster care since they were too young to even remember. When the older one was giving his "testimony," it planted the seeds of doubt in my mind that adoption is not always a humane option.

The second was during my political science class at university. We were talking about abortion and we had a guest speaker who talked about how she is personally pro-life, but politcally pro-choice. She brought up all the great points of how the religious community is just pro-birth, not pro-life. I started paying more attention in my religious circles to just how terribly people treated single mothers and even their children. You really want the woman to have this child and then you treat them both with contempt? Even though the child did nothing wrong in this instance?

The third, and I think this is what sealed the deal for me, was I saw research showing how banning abortions can actually lead to more abortions. It also showed that banning it doesn't stop abortions at all, but makes them way less safe. If people are going to do it, whether or not I agree with it, I'd like them to at least do it safely.

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I was r@ped by my father. Got pregnant at 16 and then was told to get over it by my grandfather who also called me a whore. Definitely not pro life lol

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Dianellian

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2 years ago

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That’s awful! Hope you escaped that family.

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I was very pro-life from a child until about halfway though college. When I learned that that the "facts" about abortion I had been told by my community and from high school teachers all lies. Just blatant indoctrination.

Then I learned about the history of abortion in America. Not from a class but because I happened across an old movie on cable TV from the 1950s. It was about a woman who got pregnant and it was going to ruin her career so she gave her self an abortion with a coat hangar. After seeing that and feeling really shocked I started reading up on abortion and roe vs wade.

I was pissed at how I was lied to, but also how the "pro-life" movement completely ignores the realty of abortion and pregnancy.

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I was raised by a fundamentalist Christian mom, so as a teenager of course I was taught Abortion is murder. OMG, not the babies! As I grew older, I grew up. I am a Militant Athiest and see Religion as damaging in so many ways. Life is not black and white, there are many shades of grey. No one has the right to tell a Woman she has to carry a pregnancy. After having two kids myself and two miserable pregnancies I would never expect a Woman to be forced to go through that if she didn't want to for whatever reason. It blows my mind that other Women don't see it that way. It especially upsets me when men who have never been pregnant and have no concept at all are militatly pro life. Sorry but this is one of those stay in your lane situations. An abortion is a medical procedure and is no ones business but hers and her Physicians.

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The fact that abortions really became a hot topic issue when the Republican party realized that they could use it to attack the rights of women. Abortion didn't use to be a problem until women were able to get access more freely and choose for themselves.

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rspanther

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2 years ago

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It has always been about control.

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Coming to terms with the fact that I was in the Marines, an organization meant to do one thing on behalf of the President and the taxpayer: kill people. Our government spends astronomical amounts of money on just new and exciting ways to kill people. Then spends more to teach those ways to teenagers so that they can use them on other teenagers in poor countries. The cherry on this s**t Sunday is that the prolife crowd loves the arrangement.

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I'm obviously not a fan of abortions, but the fact that men's bodies aren't legislated whatsoever made me realize it's really about repression of women.

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I grew up and began to question why the government should be involved in my own personal decisions. If they really want to interfere in my life and health, how about fixing the lax food regulations so we don't have such an obesity problem? How about healthcare? Or making it more affordable to birth and raise a child? No? Then you don't get a say on my uterus.

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2 years ago

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If we’re going to force women to have babies they don’t want, we should also be forcing the fathers to be active and present in their children’s lives. Once this is being voted on, many minds will be changed

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I was pro-life when I was in high school because I was still going to a very small southern baptist church with my parents 3x per week. Then I graduated, went to college, and realized that there are so many completely valid reasons to have an abortion and I figured out that I really don’t care what anyone else does as long as it’s not hurting someone else. This changed a lot of my views.

Another thing that really solidified that I’m pro-choice was getting pregnant. It takes such a toll on your body and it’s not something that should be forced onto anyone. Then raising kids is also extremely difficult and I feel like if you’re forced to raise a kid that you didn’t want, you’re not going to raise a very good person.

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I got pregnant as a teenager and it opened my eyes to how cruel the evangelical church is even though I was apart of their “family” my entire life.

After stepping away I reevaluated all my values and beliefs away from their indoctrination

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I realised opposing vaccine mandates on the basis of bodily autonomy then believing that women should be incubators was hypocritical and realised defending the right to bodily autonomy includes supporting people making decisions I don't approve of.

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When I got away from the rural bubble I was raised in and learned that the pro-choice argument was never really about when life begins. Combined with realizing that neither was the pro-life argument. Religious and conservative leaders get you so focused on that line, and convince you that nothing else matters, and in that framing the pro-life argument is the only one that makes sense.

The truth is when life begins doesn't matter. I mean, sure, pro-choice people on average are more inclined to dehumanize a fetus, and plenty of well meaning pro-lifers are genuinely concerned for the life and well-being of the fetuses, but that absurd trolly problem is far from the core belief of either side. The core belief of the pro-choice side is that you cannot *force* a woman to remain pregnant against her will. The core belief of the pro-life side is that pregnancy is the natural consequence of sex, and if you aren't prepared to be pregnant and carry a fetus to term, you shouldn't have sex, *and* that this needs to be regulated because loose women are out there getting pregnant all the time and using abortion to escape the consequences. That's why most of them still support the laundry list of exceptions, and don't see the hypocrisy when they or someone they care about needs one. In that more accurate framing, only the pro-choice argument makes any sense.

Since I became pro-choice I've had a lot of discussions on the subject, and without fail when you strip out all the bs and rationalizations it always comes back to the sex. If any pro-lifers can clearly articulate a pro-life argument that doesn't rely on "she chose to have sex" I'd be happy to change my mind again. I do still think abortion is tragic, but frankly the details of whether or not someone has consensual sex is none of mine or the government's business.

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I heard a doctor on a radio show talking about the pro-life movement. He said the reason why it was so prolific was patriarchy. That comment shook me and pushed me to rethink my beliefs about abortion.

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I read a book called “The Atonement Child” by Francine Rivers. It made me realize how nuanced this actually is and that it’s totally not black and white. Growing up, I thought “pro-choice” were just a bunch of people who wanted to go around having reckless sex and just kill babies… Instead, I realized there are so many legit reason someone may actually *need* and abortion. Also, the book made me realize that making abortion illegal doesn’t actually stop abortion from happening, it just stops *safe* abortion…. From there, I started learning more and more about the pro-life movement and realized how stupid judgmental it is and that was the last nail in the coffin. Like, I hate the whole idea that these people go around yelling against abortion and then as soon as the baby is born they not just don’t care, they actively prevent mothers and children from getting care and life they deserve,..

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My pro life stance hinged on one concept I took from my (at the time) faith: life begins at conception. Sperm, ovum meet and *poof*, person.

After I left the church, I still was pro life for a while. A lot of the old arguments stuck with me. The biggest pivot came as I gained more women in my friend group and listened to their perspective.

I still have an opinion on the metaphysics of gestation and some thoughts on when an embryo goes from "mass of cells that has the potential to become a person" and "person". I still think that if we could pinpoint that moment with absolute certainty the debate would be over; no one wants to kill children.

I recognize that we don't know that point though. I recognize it's not my call for someone else. That is why I think that the decision should lie in the hands of the person most directly affected: the pregnant person, followed by those they choose to consult. That's it.

Anything else is demanding someone live their life conforming to my opinion and that's absurd.

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Bodily autonomy.

I heard the arguments about when life begins and just simply disagreed. I heard about how some women can't support a child and said we should beef up the social safety nets. I heard about the strains on adoption and foster care and wanted to increase funding to those programs. I heard about the exceptions and thought "two wrongs don't make a right."

Then I heard the argument that we can't force a person to give their body to someone else. We can't force kidney transplants, blood transfusions, even postmortem organ donation. And we shouldn't be able to. So why should we be able force someone to incubate a life for 9 months?

Since then, I've stopped caring about when life "begins" (it's a philosophical question and also a moot point in this context) and abandoned that last, most problematic argument. Still think funding should be increased to social programs, but not as a "solution" to abortion (and imo, the "financial burdens" argument for legal abortions is still pretty weak at best and borderline supporting population control at worst).

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I grew up. When I was younger I didn’t really look for the complexities in peoples situations, or WHY they made the decision to terminate. I always just thought “you’re taking away someone’s chance at life”. Then I learned that pregnancy is a traumatic experience, and the reality of many kids in the system, and more about finances. I started paying attention to how much baby items cost. I got a job and realized that a thousand dollars really isn’t all that much.

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Oddly enough, a Catholic high school education.

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Leaving may parents culty small town church. Once I started questions my religion I still didn't like abortion and to a degree i don't really think anyone LOVES it, right? It’s a freedom that women should have access to!

I used to have friends who are "abolishonists". Trying to get abortion abolished. One day I asked one of the women in their group if waving bloody signs in front of clinics actually worked. She said that once or twice it had. So I asked her what her community was doing to support those girls and she's like: well, we bought one of them some diapers?

It strikes me that a group hell bent on fighting tooth and nail to “end the genocide that is abortion” would also be fighting tooth and nail to make childbirth as attractive as possible to parents.

I hate to parrot a taking point, but it seems like prolifers only give a s**t about birth. Not the people being born.

But ultimately, I just don't think much good can come from forcing someone to have a baby they don't wanna have!

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A realization that I’m cool with mercy killing and euthanasia. That people are a scourge, and unwanted people drain a lot of resources. That there isn’t enough love in the world for born people, so why gripe about killing unwanted unborn people.

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When I heard about just how painful pregnancy is. When I was like a little kid I thought that abortion was this terrible thing but after hearing stories from mothers and their experiences in hospitals just giving birth I was horrified. Like you should not force that type of pain on a person. It's hard enough having that pain but I can't imagine going through that and not even wanting the child.

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When I stopped subscribing to the Christian worldview, I found I could no longer do the needed mental gymnastics to justify being a hardline pro-lifer.

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Being pregnant when I didn’t want to be.

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My mum is absolutely against abortion. When I was 17 I had a big discussion with friends and later decided to write a scientific paper about IVF and stuff and somewhere in between I realised that a) abortions don't actually hurt anyone and b) either way it's none of my business (and not for me to judge) what other people do with their bodies.

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I grew up in the foster care system. Once I developed critical thinking skills I realized that most of these kids are from households that probably should have (for the sake of the child) aborted them, and they ended up tormented by mental health issues and the fact that life had its foot on their neck from the get go. Not that some can’t grow up healthy and happy, I just know it’d be far less inundated a system if a choice was easily accessible

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Not me but my daughter. Pro life because "omg how could you hurt babies????"
But I am going to respect her positions so whatever
She got pregnant at 17 and gave birth before high school graduation. Going through a traumatic pregnancy, finishing high school and now starting college, have to navigate all the WIC stuff. Even with the whole familes support including her boyfriend, it would be an understatement to call the experience an eye opener.

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Kathryn Baylis

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2 years ago (edited)

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Now take away that support system, and you have a better picture of the outcome of abolishing Roe v Wade for the majority of women. We don’t all have supportive families and partners who will stick around.

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A friend of mine convinced me by showing me that abortions reduces crime.

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This sounds horrible, but the world is overpopulated as it is. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that most people who have abortions are either not very educated or they are poor. I'm not trying to judge them on this, as it's likely a byproduct of their environment, right? Like if they grew up poor, maybe they didn't have access to birth control, etc.

That doesn't change the fact that a lot of children would be born that ultimately end up "burdening" (for lack of better term) society like their parents did.

The rest of my family are pretty strong Republicans and they always say things like "I'm tired of my tax dollars going to people on welfare" etc. Yet they're pro life. That made me think. Isn't it hypocritical to make people have children they can't afford, then complain about having to provide for them?

I can see how this point of view could come across as ignorant but it's where I stand right now. Pls reply if you want!

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Deborah B

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2 years ago

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It's more than "poor people are more likely to have abortions" it's "having a baby in your teens or early twenties forces people into poverty, and stops them escaping it".

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Medicine. Studying medicine changed my views on a lot of things in life that was shaped by religion.

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I realized that pro-choice =/= pro-abortion. I still think abortion is a moral hazard and should generally be avoided when possible. However, banning the choice means that women who have miscarriages are treated like potential criminals, that women who require abortion procedures to save the mother's life (sometimes when the pregnancy is not viable) can't get them... And on and on. Another powerful argument for me was comparing forbidding abortions to requiring someone to undergo surgery and donate an organ because it would save someone else's life. I did not feel remotely comfortable with that and had to ask myself why. Last, i started to realize that banning abortion wouldn't end abortion, it would end safe abortions for poor people.

I still want to limit abortions, so now I'm hugely in favor of readily available contraceptives and sex education... Since those actually do decrease abortions without the infringing on anyone's body autonomy.

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Deborah B

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2 years ago

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In some cases the donor argurment would be "requiring someone to undergo surgery and donate an organ to save someone elses life even though they will incur a massive medical debt in the process, and their doctors are warning them that it would be extremely high risk with the chance of severe and lasting damage to their body if they survive."

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I became more Faithful and less consumed by what a religious institution told me I should believe. One of the primary tenants of my faith is to not pass judgement on others. Who am I to judge or to tell anyone what they should or should not do with their lives and bodies. I would personally never chose to have an abortion, but I would also NEVER disparage someone for making that choice.

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For me it started when I was able to shed my absurd assertions about the existence of god/gods.

About that same time I took my first college philosophy course and have been studying it ever since (about 4 decades now).

Over time I came to realize that abortion ( as with all other politicized topics) was almost never discussed by calmly rational agents, but rather was shouted about by impassioned folk who want to win the fight more than they want to know what is true.

It is almost impossible to find people who are able, or even willing, to discuss abortion calmly and rationally (I could us this thread as evidence).

Along the way I developed an understanding of philosophical ethics, devoid of appeals to deity (or any other authority), and it gradually became clear that my squeamishness about the idea of *an abortion* was irrelevant to the logical position that abortion is always an ethical choice.

Now I get to sit back and watch the partisan tribal bickering and enjoy my bourbon.

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Eastendbird

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2 years ago

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Well aren't you the clever one...

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Critical thinking, reading experiences, and learning what kind of people supposed “pro-lifers” are.

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Growing up. As a teen I was strictly against abortion. Now as i get older, although I still dont fully agree with it, what i do agree with is not telling others what to do with their bodies.

Its hard for me to have kids so as it is, chemo destroyed me, so I'd hope that my SO would never go that route, but outside of my life and relationship, i have no say whatsoever so i decided not to care about it anymore. Love your neighbor but leave them alone.

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Give me liberty or give me death.

Liberty outclasses life and a women's liberty is to decide.

This applies to everything.

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Prolife until maybe high school. I realized “why do I care about something that doesn’t affect me”

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It’s not my job or responsibility to govern another person’s body. God gave us all free will. I advocate for that free will for everyone.

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I was mostly neutral and didn't care either way. I think I've grown to realize a lot of s**t parents should abort instead of having the cycle continue. I'm pro-choice for pretty much that reason and others. Young and made a mistake, fine. On all precautionary medicine to prevent a kid, go ahead. If abortion is your preferred method of contraceptives, f**k you. If you have kids and are a pos raising more dumb f**k kids, f**k you also.

Pro-Choise is the only option I see.

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I saw how miserable people with down syndrome are after 30 when their parents are old. I love it in Iceland where up to 10 people with down syndrome are being born yearly. And they are very happy as a society about it.

In general humanity reached a point where some minimal eugenics is necessary otherwise our genetics will become extremely unhealthy. People with multiple gene diseases can now breed and long time ago they would die as kids. It propagates.

For example insuline made number of people with diabetes much higher because genes responsible are being propagated. And also kids of people with diabetes have 3-5 higher chance to have any other gene diseases. I would just not have kids then.

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Ummm. I am rabidly pro-choice and just... No.

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