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Why is it that the people we love the most are also the people who seem to cause us the most pain? In healthy relationships, our romantic partners, best friends and family members can make us feel safer and warmer than anyone else on Earth. But unfortunately, our loved ones are also capable of exhibiting toxic behaviors that can be detrimental to our wellbeing.

Reddit users have recently been calling out common actions and traits that many people don’t realize can be abusive, so we’ve gathered some of their thoughts below. We hope you can’t relate to experiencing these behaviors, pandas, but if you can, know that you’re not alone. And be sure to upvote the replies that you think everyone needs to hear.

#1

“Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Reactive abuse. Basically, abusers will poke and prod their victim so much until their victim has an explosive reaction. The abuser will then use this reaction as justification for their abuse or to further manipulate and gaslight the victim.

HuggyMummy , Liza Summer Report

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Angela B
Community Member
1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

This. This is what he did. For 30 years. I realised too late but I know now.

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    #2

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Yelling. Years of walking on eggshells will damage a person's nervous system.

    OhSoSoftly444 , Liza Summer Report

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    Red Reilly
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    ooooh this makes so much sense, my ex had the shortest fuse, ANY issue and he would scream the house down.

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    #3

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic When you ask them to not joke about X, and they say something like, “Well, I guess I won’t speak at all anymore.”

    They’re making it so difficult to set a boundary that you’ll want to give up.

    villettegirl , Ketut Subiyanto Report

    #4

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Neglect - neglect IS abuse

    ZenythhtyneZ , Abir Joy Report

    #5

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Telling a child how they should feel.

    “You should be grateful.”

    “You should be happy.”

    “You should be sorry.”

    It shows the child just how little the parent actually cares about their feelings. The child is just a doll to them that they think they can control.

    I remember my cat’s leg and tail was broken and my dad told me “You should be happy because I didn’t shoot her.” I will never forgive him for that

    PocketGoblix Report

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    #6

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Invalidating your feelings by making it about them and how you holding them accountable is upsetting them.

    SunflowerGirl728 , Andrew Neel Report

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    Jo Jones
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I love my mother but every time I tried to talk about my upbringing and how some aspects of it negatively affected me as an adult , she’d say “that never happened/you ate making it up/I remember it differently/ you have no idea how hard was for ME/ it’s because my mother never wanted me “

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    #7

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Mothers who treat their sons like surrogate boyfriends/husbands. If their sons DARE to have a girlfriend or get married, these women act like they're being cheated on.

    Drink-my-koolaid , Kamshotthat Report

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    Ross “Sarcastic Dad”
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Took me until the age of 35 to realize this was my mom. It was so freeing afterwards. I was able to finally be who I wanted to be. Happy I'm in such a good place now, but pissed about how many years I felt like an ex-husband to my mom. No contact now....obviously.

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    #8

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic trying to "test" people's food allergies because they don't believe them or trying to sneak a food someone doesn't like into a dish to prove them wrong.

    falsepossum , eat kubba Report

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    C. Rut.
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    My MIL always tried to convince me food was gluten free. "These are soy bagels, honey." Yeah if they made gf soy bagels that looked that good I'd know about it, Barb.

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    #9

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Weaponized incompetence

    PartyyLemons , Vlada Karpovich Report

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    KLL
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    You ask your husband to pick up the kid from daycare. Your husband says he doesn't know how to because he's never done it before and it would just be easier if you did it....the "incompetence" conveniently excuses him from doing the work that you do all the time. Either via the suggestion of someone else doing the task OR sometimes the old acceptance of the task but requiring present, constant hand holding all the while emphasizing how difficult it is and making the process so painful that it's never asked of them again.

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    #10

    Not teaching your kids basic life skills to keep them dependent

    mazioo1233 Report

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    VioletHunter
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    So most parents today who keep their kids locked up at home and never allow them to go anywhere alone.

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    #12

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Parentification. I recently learned in therapy that it wasn’t normal that I was cooking & changing my siblings diapers when I was 8.

    ThunderTaker1992 , Ketut Subiyanto Report

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    majandess
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    This is tricky because doing chores isn't parentification. My job as a parent is not to babysit my child and do everything for them, while they go play with toys and "be a kid". Rather, it's to teach my child how to be a fully functioning human being so he's not drop-kicked out into the world at 18 not knowing basic life skills like laundry, cooking, mending, cleaning, shopping for necessities, voting, and giving at least a hint of a thought about tending to another living creature's needs. I was cooking and doing laundry and changing my sibling's diapers when I was eight. The difference was that I was not the primary doer of those things, so no one absolutely depended on my doing them (well... I was dependent on doing my own laundry). Parentification isn't in the chores you're tasked with; it's in the level of responsibility instilled in those chores.

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    #13

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Using personal things someone has told you against them when you are angry. My husband does this and tries to pretend he’s being “constructive”, rather than just cruel. And I’m working on getting my s**t together to get the f**k out because I’m tired of being painted as the bad guy when I get upset.

    dixiequick , Alex Green Report

    #14

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Keeping you isolated. My ex tried convincing me that my parents and friends didn’t love me.

    OddReputation3765 , Alena Darmel Report

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    Justme
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I almost ended my life when I genuinely believed I had no one to turn to and no where to go

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    #15

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Breaking things while angry with their partner/kid (punching a hole in the wall for example)

    They may not be hitting you, but they want to.

    gorhxul , Pixabay Report

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    Andy Frobig
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    My father was always so proud that he never laid a hand on us (that should be the bare minimum), but he went into rages and caused property damage that scared the hell out of us

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    #16

    Taking away someones personal belongings, or selling them without permission. My mom would go through my room and trash or sell everything while I was at school. She's sold or thrown away my deceased dad's stuff, toys, clothes, pets, etc... and act like I shouldn't be upset. My sister does this as well.

    legendariiiii Report

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    Bobby
    Community Member
    1 year ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I never thought of this, but I have 2 kids under 10. I regularly go through their clothes and get rid of the ones that don't fit. I never really talked about it before with them cause the clothes don't fit and I need the space for the clothes that do. I'll have to ask if this upsets them now

    ThatGayBeans
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Good f*****g job. You took a step back, looked at it, and decided to ask them, most people I know don't have that maturity in them

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    Kelly Scott
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Yup. I have nothing left from my childhood because my mom threw everything out or gave it away because "you're too old for that". Some of that stuff would be worth a lot of money now.

    TheBlueBitterfly
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Hubs mother would constantly throw out things like clothes he'd purchased with his own money, sentimental items he had carefully saved and put away, and collectors items. Because it was "garbage" to her. But her house is a nightmare hoarders space.

    Lizz
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Mom again. Hid stuff I got "too attached to". Told me she threw it away or burned it. Turns out she just hid it in the attic but man the heartbreak I went through... Especially because she said "it was my fault "

    Mysteria
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    My mom has threatened that if the drawers in my sister’s room are messy, she’ll throw everything out.

    Jill Bussey
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    My M & D did this. They moved house, throwing away my childhood in the process and the first I knew of it was a change of address.

    Dread Pirate Roberts
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Whoa, pets?! It's bad enough they did that with all that other stuff, but pets?! If I were OP, I would do everything in my power to make her mom's and sister's life a living hell from then onward. Ruining their most treasured possessions would be a good start.

    Sue User
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Yep. Had an ex get rid of a bunch of my belongings after he moved in because he "needed space" ( preferred minimalism ) . When i got upset, he called me a hoarder and materialistic.

    Sarah Kathrin Matsoukis
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I would have burned their entire house down, I'm not joking. I get very attached to things.

    smolcattoqueen
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    + without their knowing and lie about it. This is the worst ever, if you find out that your parent/sibling took away something that you are searching for ages and don't find them, and you find them hidden from you (in the better case).

    Beanz' Mum
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    when my Nanna died I wanted only two things - her gold signet ring and a china cabinet, my sister had dibs on just about everything else of any worth. never received the ring, my sister took great delight in telling me it was left on her during her cremation. My mother refused to let me have the china cabinet, I have no doubt she sold it as she had her own.

    JessieJ&LilyLovebug
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    My mom's mom did this to her throughout her whole childhood and she is still scarred by it, at 63 years old, and ny grandmother died years ago. Every time they moved, she just made them leave almost everything behind.

    R.A. Haley
    Community Member
    1 year ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    My mother-in-law did this, and many other cruel things. Time has led us all to believe that she was schizo and bi-polar(undiagnosed), and just plain mean. Had six kids, all of which hated her. Funny story: at Xmas once after the mom passed, the daughters were swapping horror stories about her. I remarked that none of them ever had any nice or fun stories to tell about their mom, and one sister snapped "there's a reason for that!"

    Frank Hayes
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    An acquaintance threw away things his wife ‘didn’t need’ according to him. Of course his goods were treasures. He really wanted to be close friends, thought our wives got along and could talk about nothing while we did ‘important man things’. The last straw was when he suggested swapping wives! I flat out said no and for several reasons like I wasn’t interested and I knew my wife would be repulsed at the idea. I didn’t tell him I already knew what my wife would say about it. His take? ‘Do what I do, tell her you want this, she’ll do it’. Bold? Outrageous was more like it! I second was I found his presence to be so negative I had to get him out of my life. Soon after my beloved mentioned why I don’t have him over anymore, I already was aware of her not caring for him. I went into detail.

    EJN
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I had a cat who had kittens and one day I came home from school to find her and her kittens gone. My father had taken them to the SPCA; in other words, he threw them away. I loved my father, but never forgave him for treating animals like trash.

    Nick Curtis
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    absolutely this, my parents would do this as a punishment, remove everything from my room and sell/throw away things regardless of if it was something they provided or something I bought with my own money. and over the smallest stuff too, they did this once because I locked my door due to needing some privacy but I wasn't allowed to lock my door

    Nick Curtis
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    absolutely, my parents would do this, as a punishment they would take everything out of my room or sell/throw away stuff. regardless of if it was something they had provided or something I bought with my own money. and over literally anything, they did this once because I locked my door to have a little privacy but I wasn't allowed to lock my door

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    #17

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Sibling rivalry that goes unchecked by parents.

    Man, I can't believe how common/ignored sibling abuse is. Neglectful parents plus unruly children is a recipe for disaster.

    One-Sandwich5588 , cottonbro studio Report

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    Jennifer Smith
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    As the youngest of five I was routinely abused. I made sure it didn’t happen with my kids.

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    #18

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Not letting people express negative emotions because it's 'negativity.'

    swooooot , cottonbro studio Report

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    Crowthistle
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    You can't have light without dark. Why are the positive people seen as better?

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    #19

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Toxic spirituality. I think a lot of mental health problems hide behind spirituality.

    Like, maybe that person isn't your soul mate/twin flame, you just need to deal with some Internal issues buddy.

    Ok_Thanks_3868 , RF._.studio Report

    #20

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Constantly reminding someone of their shortcomings/ past mistakes

    Fancy__Mushroom__ , EKATERINA BOLOVTSOVA Report

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    Sue User
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Him:I have stopped drinking and took anger management classes.What have you done to improve yourself? I know there are things i could improve. But being constant reminded of every little failure ? I cant figure out the real issues.

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    #21

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic It doesn't have to be violence, it's the implication that something bad will happen if you don't comply. Agreeing to pay for your kids college and pulling the rug out from under them over something petty like a political disagreement is abuse.

    I left home to go to college. I was going to work and save up a decent amount of money and wait a year but I was told to not worry about it. I went and within a few months we had a disagreement and they stopped helping at all. I'm halfway through a semester at that point and don't have a job or rent. The landlord was cool and gave me time to catch up.

    I racked up a ton of credit card debt during this time. My parents were not hurting for money. I never would have done it if my dad didn't tell me not to worry about it.

    CaptainAwesom88 , Carolina Report

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    Tracy Wallick
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    This was my entire life. There was always an explicit threat of "or else"; it was *unimaginably* stressful, and I 100% blame the fact that I have an anxiety disorder on that.

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    #22

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Showing favoritism - family related. Not by directly saying "I prefer x over y" but by the little comments, actions/inactions. It can really mess with someone's self esteem, confidence, and overall thoughts of self and self worth.

    SliverKai , Daria Obymaha Report

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    Tracy Wallick
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    My father didn't even pretend to hide his favoritism; he could, in the same breath, tell my sister he'd support her goals however he could, and then turn to me and tell me that my dreams were stupid and that I'd receive no help.

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    #23

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Continuing certain behavior after the person you are affecting has (repeatedly) asked you to stop.

    *But-I’m-Not-Touching-You*-ism is a short route to abusive behavior.

    Mullet_Police , Ketut Subiyanto Report

    #24

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Manipulation under the guise of caring for what happens to you

    First_Catch_3919 , Mental Health America (MHA) Report

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    Historyharlot93
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    NiceGuys do this all the time. “I’m just concerned about your mental health. How are you doing?” Then proceed to harass you mercilessly

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    #25

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Harnessing therapy speak to absolve oneself of accountability

    Comfortable-Ear-9186 , RDNE Stock project Report

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    Donkey boi
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Or using your diagnosis (or more likely self diagnosis) as an excuse to be an AH.

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    #26

    Comparing one child to another,cousin or friends. Why can’t you be more like them. It’s so toxic.

    Deep_Classroom3495 Report

    #27

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Uploading your childrens videos to youtube for fame.

    Im looking at you, Pinnay and Brazillian mothers.

    Theres wayyyy too many videos of girls doing trendy pool stuff in YT that get scavenged by weird men.

    Spiceinvader1234 , Christian Wiediger Report

    #28

    My favorite type that I seem to gravitate toward.

    Telling people their emotional response is invalid or they shouldn't feel a certain way.

    By all the pantheons, I always find people that love pushing that into my brain, from parents to dating.

    Your emotions are yours. You have them for a reason.

    That doesn't give you the right to use them to hurt others, but you're allowed to feel.

    I wish younger me understood that.

    trashpanda4811 Report

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    elissajshields
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    It's good to understand your emotions too and not just give into them either...if they are toxic especially. Not using them to manipulate others or as an excuse for not respecting others feelings too. Like, "you just have to accept and take my moods because it's who I am and I'm allowed to feel this way" and then not working towards ways to better yourself or your relationships.

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    #29

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Driving recklessly with you in the car

    Littletexasginger , JESHOOTS.com Report

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    Tracy Wallick
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Driving recklessly, period. They think they're the only ones who will get hurt if they crash but no, there are other people in the other cars, you're not the main character of a racing video game.

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    #30

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Gatekeeping hygiene and not teaching your child about normal hygiene and personal care. I didn’t even realize it was a common thing with narcissistic parents until recently.

    HealthyInPublic , Allan Mas Report

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    #31

    Altruistic Narcissism. People that do their best to be extremely helpful to everyone around them, but it's all a manipulative act. They don't actually care about you or what you go through, they just want everyone to see them in a good light.

    JayEdwards902 Report

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    Tabitha
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Or they’re transactional narcissists, who keep a tally of their “good deeds” to coerce you into doing them some kind of “favor” to lay them back, usually something unpleasant and/or unsavory, to test you. It’s all a manipulation game to them, and nice people are their favorite targets. Yeah, I fell for it back in my young and gullible days. It’s why I don’t trust ANYBODY 100% anymore. However, being aware of it and knowing it’s an issue (or could be), I try not to show it, and attempt to read people better, instead of just going with what appear to be favorable first impressions but could be a finely honed act, to see if I could trust them.

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    #32

    Not allowing you to leave the room by blocking the door

    SPriplup Report

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    #33

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Commanding both parties’ finances. Not just being a breadwinner, but also shaming the other party for making purchases and/ or demanding their paycheck.

    SpacecadetSpe , Karolina Grabowska Report

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    Donkey boi
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    My wife and I have an all-in financial setup. Everything goes in and out of the same account, we both have full access. We get paid about 15 days apart so there is usually always something in there. And we've never had a 'my money/your money' moment. It works for us because we communicate; If I want to treat myself (which I rarely do), I'll ask if we can afford it. She has a better head for finances and I trust her judgement if she want's to treat herself, but she will often say 'I'm going to to get xyz next month, because we're a little tight this month'. It's not for everyone, but works for us.

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    #34

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Silent treatment,
    Doing/ paying something and waiting for something to return, make a person feel guilty about it,
    Don’t make a promise you can’t keep

    Logical-Option-182 , Diva Plavalaguna Report

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    R Dennis
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I will be silent sometimes because I don't want to say things in anger. When I talk, I want to be rational and thoughtful. That is why when my kids were little and had done something wrong, I would send them to their rooms first. I wanted to be able to hear them and discuss next actions, including consequences, rationally. Nothing ever came out of nowhere, it was discussed and consistent.

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    #35

    Making people feel guilty for something a person can’t control. My dad did this constantly.

    Im_queenpotato Report

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    Ephemeral Mochi
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    It pisses me off when my mom treats me like I'm lazy when my brain just isn't functioning at a level that allows me to do schoolwork. I don't have control over my hormones, thoughts, nerve signals, and emotions, and I can't just get back to work. Sometimes I simply cannot do it, and I'd like her to acknowledge that.

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    #36

    Financial abuse is abuse

    ElleMNOPea Report

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    #38

    toxic positivity and love bombing

    Scary_Sarah Report

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    Sooploosh MacSchnibble
    Community Member
    1 year ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    wait what it is this bc I try to be positive w my friends and I tell them I love them a lot so I might be doing this by accident EDIT: Ok so I google and thats not what im doing C:

    #39

    “Recently Learned In Therapy That It Wasn’t Normal”: 30 Behaviors People Don’t Realize Are Toxic Stonewalling a partner.

    enjoycryptonow , Keira Burton Report

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    Rider
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    It can be difficult to tell the difference between trauma response and stonewalling. Trauma response is freezing/shutting down from overwhelm. Stonewalling is intentionally withholding.

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