Uncommon Boston

Uncommon Boston

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Religious traditions have meaning to those who follow them. They are reminders of what they believe, are part of celebrating and mourning events in their holy books. Often it is an important part of their faith. My son loved the Ash Wednesday tradition of wearing ashes on our forehead. When he was four he wanted to receive ashes, there is no age age restriction, ashes are an outward sign of his faith, it is symbol of how we worship, what we believe, a sign of being a member of this group of people. These are not the reason we wear ashes, but are they wrong? If a child wants to participate, let him do so.

That's called censorship of speech. Be careful what you wish for.

Not EVERYTHING. A few things, like face covers, but I don't know what I would do watching my mother baking treats like latkes (potato pancakes) and not being able to eat them.

Yes. It sepparates the kids from the others and does not let them chose their creed or experience life equally to others.

EXACTLY i dont understand why some places make them wear those while they are under 18

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Absolutely

Totally! Thank you for explaining this so clearly. I'm Muslim and wish more people understood this. Our religion is beautiful, as are the others and as are the principles atheists or agnostic people follow. Of course not everything should be interpreted literally, as goes for Christians, Jews or Hindus, for many reasons. The nutjobs and women hating Incels everywhere are spreading rubbish to control and dominate, same goes for every religion. It's because of this crazies-virus that the entire group is held hostage for decades. The people twisting and desecrating their religion for personal gain are the ones who'll never achieve peace within themselves. Because that's what religion or any form or modern meditation and introspection offers: peace, kindness, solace, solidarity and calmness. That's what the vast majority of people focuses on and what's important to remember!!!

I said in another post couple days ago, religion and culture is two different thing but they influence each other greatly. This is one of those culture things that became part of religion.

Thanks. I cannot agree more. A faceless person becomes dehumanised and it is also dangerous for the population since you cannot identify the person (like with a balaclava). I have a lot of muslim colleagues (some wear or not veils) and most of them agree in that they shouldnt be allowed.

You're saying 'that religion' and the contempt in your words for Muslims shows how much you look down upon them. You're right, niqab and burka are not Islamic but you know something? In my country Christian women wear chaddar and burka as well. In fact, historically speaking, niqab/burqa was worn by Christian women in the Eastern hemisphere long before Muslims adopted it. Its roots are found in Christianity which many Christians in the western world are completely unaware of.

If you don't want to wear it, who cares. People in all religions want to change or pick and choose. People in all religions commit sin. There is clear evidence from Aisha, radi Allahu anha, that the niqab is legislated. Why do we advocate for women, but deny the words of Aisha, one of the (if not MOST) prominent women in Islam? She narrated the most hadith, and men would travel to sit and learn Islam from her. Let all women wear what they want, INCLUDING niqab, and stop being hypocrites with the fake feminism.

Uncommon Boston

Uncommon Boston

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It is tradition, a form of expression you may not believe in. Apparently they do.

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The prophet Mohammed was a pedophile. He had multiple wives. He got with his youngest wife Aisha when she was 6 years old! F-u-c-k most all religions, but especially f-u-c-k islam!

Ozacoter, baklava is a dessert. Quite yummy! But most people don't wear them in public.

they are trained to do it. I couldnt believe when I read the kite runner and see pictures of Afgahnistan in the 70s looking like American 70s. now look.

Totally contrary to your statement, I understand when people try to leave all but the most liberal Moslem religions they are punished rather severely, everything from being thrown out of their families to being murdered. And women particularly are imprisoned and executed for wearing anything different or acting in any way different. So in order to leave the religion they must flee to a non-Moslem country. Is that not true most of the time?

Paul Davis, you understand? How do you understand? Have you studied Muslim culture? Read peer-reviewed sociology papers published in academic journals? Lived in a Muslim home? Studied with an Imam? I would like to know your qualifications for your understanding so that we can take your understanding for informed and accurate.

Totally. Any adult woman should be allowed to wear any piece of clothing that is not deemed dangerous (so not a balaclava for example). A lot of my colleagues are muslims and wear the prettiest scarfs.

Karin, as for your response to Paul Davis, these things are widely known, just speak with any ex-Muslim, check their forums, etc. There are plenty of news articles about ex-Muslims or women refusing to cover-up getting killed by their families. Denying the abuse of women in the name of tolerance is not a good look.

Agree. You be who you want to be! :)

Requiem, So your standard of enlightenment and liberty is when Muslim women dress like American women? So why do you claim to care about consent and the right to choose when you believe your culture is so superior that others can only become enlightened once they adopt it? You've never been to Afghanistan. Seeing a few pictures is all you did and now you're claiming to know what Afghanistan was like in the 70s. The pictures only showcased the very rich upper class living in some parts of Kabul. Not even the whole city lived like that. 98% of the country never wore skirts and western clothes and why should they? Eastern men and women have beautiful, diverse clothes that have thousands of years of cultural relevance. Why should they ditch their beautiful and colorful, extravagant dresses to wear a uniform dress to be considered empowered by you?

Uncommon Boston

Uncommon Boston

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Ozascoter, children see everyone as equal until told otherwise. I wear my grandmother's necklace with a crucifix proudly. Should we forbid children from wearing them? I taught religious education for 8 years. Some of the children understood the Bible and basis of our faith better than most adults --- how much experience do you have working with children? Kids think, have opinions, ideas, and can evaluate concepts, unless told not to. They are our future, shouldn't we teach them to express their beliefs, not hide them. The minimum age required to drive, drink or vote vary around the world. Why can you decide when people can think for themselves? We learn from those not like us. Diversity is to be celebrated, not suppressed. Nurture this, don't judge it harshly. Perhaps ask the child why they wear a symbol of their faith. How can you judge!

@ Ozacoter - Well they are often generalised as "hijab" or "forms of covering" where I am currently. Thank you for apologising, not many would.

I am sorry but if you are not deemed old enough to vote you are not old enough to decide about that. We could argue if a 16yo is mature enough to vote and decide that but since 18 is the adult age in europe its the number I chose. Burkas and niqabs are dangerous since you dont show the face. Same with balaclavas. Hence why they are illegal in many countries.

@Ozacoter why shouldn't a 16 year old not be able to decide about what they wear or what they belive?

I am sorry about saying veil but thats the word we usually use here to refer to all of them. What is the correct word for all of them?

👏👏👏

Thank you! To both Ami and Boston

Uncommon Boston

Uncommon Boston

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Yes, absolutely!

It makes me happy to read that someone finally addresses the elephant in the room. Why should these be illegal? If the woman wants to wear them, it must be her choice. Forcing to wear and forcing NOT to wear are both oppression!!!

Yes!

it's not their choice at all, they are forced to cover.

Omg. Yes I am so sorry we dont call it like that in my language. You are right. Baklavas are delicious.

Right

I 100% agree

Right

Thank you

@ozacoter I could say that same thing with masks. Many gun stores or other weapon stores are asking people to take them off because its not safe to be unable to identify someone

Same reason why we cant wear a balaclava in the city. Because its dangerous to not be able to identify people.

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Bigotry

Agreed.

Uncommon Boston

Uncommon Boston

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Saara, as a free thinking, empowered woman, you have the right to decide for yourself. None of us are required to follow the cultural rules of others.They are free to have their one own cultural definitions. We are free to ignore them.

Hi Saara. So sorry that you have to go through that. I totally respect your choice to wear niqab and I think anybody who wants to take that choice from you or wrongfully deems it 'oppressive' is unjustified and ignorant. Stay strong! I know you must grow really tired of hearing that, and tired of insincere apologies and promises, but seriously, for all it's worth, you are so brave and I support you! <3

Nowhere in your religion it says that women SHOULD wear a veil. Stop dehumanising little girls and hiding them under clothes as if there are something to be ashamed off.

It depends on the culture. I have seen a lot of kids in Antwerp wearing veils way before puberty. In any case a 12yo is still a child and should be free the exercise and be treated equally to her brothers.

I see pre-pubescent girls covering their hair and it saddens me. They shouldn't feel the need to do it that young, as they are not women yet, but it's what they see adult females do, so I guess it seems normal to them - the way a 'proper' muslim behaves. They want to show obedience to the belief they have been taught.

At 4 years old, your son only knows what you tell him about it, so, at this point he is blindly following your religion. Just like any 4 year old, he knows what you know, and follows whatever you do, he doesn't really know what it means, he isn't old enough to make an informed decision about religion. A child will follow the parents. I'm just saying, your example doesn't work. When he's 18, he may decide it's ridiculous, and when he does, you can't be angry.

Because thats what he was taught to do, he didnt come out of you yelling 'Praise Jesus our Lord and Savior"

Uncommon Boston

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Right. We shouldn't take books written thousands of years too seriously because of the difference in standards

Children arent mature enough to consent to wear a religious simbol (or any kind).

Uncommon Boston

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Ozacoter and others ------ My son and his group of friends decided they wanted to wear tuxedos to their First Communion. They considered it the most important event in their lives so far and a tuxedo the fanciest outfit they knew of. Renting a tuxedo was cheaper and easier. But other people believe they were too young to decide what to wear, are we bad parents to consider it. Is it even legal? Most little girls enjoyed picking out the white frilly dresses, but some did not want to wear a dress The moms talked and quickly decided we don't care what you think. Our rough and tumble boys, who preferred wearing layers of dirt, could decide what to wear to their event. The girls could also decide. We even let them wear crosses or religious medallions. Silly liberals, we considered the event more important than the clothes. They all knew how to dress themselves and decided what to wear everyday. Brushing your teeth was more important.

Less than the amount of people religions have oppressed throughout history, though.

idk i'm not muslim but if i were a young girl, i would want to wear a hijab as soon as possible! they're pretty and if you're mother wears one, than kids want to too. it should be their decision.

Uncommon Boston

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sylvantic, do you think people are threatened by free thinking children? My son decided he wasn't ready to be confirmed. He had a long talk with the archbishop, who agreed. Of course we ignored both and forced him to do what we wanted. He wasn't mature enough to decide! The archbishop believed children should understand the significance of the event. Ridiculous.

I was just thinking this. I am an atheist, as is my daughter, but we live in a town in the US that is historically Mormon, and still has a very substantial Mormon population. When we were shopping for my daughter's wedding dress every dress store had prominent signage about being able to add modesty panels to any dress. That is present in every wedding shop in our town because Mormons believe in covering the upper chest and arms. They call it a modesty panel, but is it really all that different of a concept? Again, my daughter is as atheist as I am, but she did want a very specific combination of features on a dress and she couldn't find the right dress, but we discovered the bonus of living in Mormon-land when a bridal shop owner said that they do so much modifying of dresses to meet Mormon religious requirements that they can basically make any stock dress into anything you want. That is how common adding a modesty panel is, and nobody bats and eye about it.

Tha ks for not reading the text I wrote. Where did I say that covering your hair is opressive? I said that covering your face is dehumanising and should not be legal for safety reasons and that minors should not be forced to wear religious symbols. I have 0 issues with adult women wearing veils as soon as they show their face.

Uncommon Boston

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Ozacoter, was the comment directed to you? Again, you seem to think this is all about your opinion. Maybe everything revolves around you where you live, but many of us live in a bigger world that includes the ideas and opinions of others. You have a lot of issues about what women wear. Aurelia! makes many good points, which you miss