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Ppl can refer to themselves how they want, I can walk around calling myself sir bobert of England. Is it fair to force my belief on others?

Transgender people are living by their gender, just like you. Who are you to call their gender a belief and then complain that this belief is being forced upon you? Are you forcing your gender on anyone just by existing?

Great response nathabiel. I enjoy your usual quips, but this shows you are deep.

(replying to Nathaniel) it's the belief that males can be women and females can be men, which is biologically and scientifically impossible. even the definition of the words "male" and "female" show this - Adult Human Female, "female" meaning the sex that has XX chromosomes. also, if you don't believe that a Woman is an Adult Human Female, then please tell me what is.

Also what you are referring to is biological sex, physical sex. We, you, me, transgender people et al, have a gender identity. In most cases that gender identity matches ones biological sex. However, when it comes to transgender people, their gender does not match their sex. Gender is more akin to sexuality and personality, it is not physical, but it still exists.

can you explain what gender / gender identity is? also, thanks for replying! happy to have a discussion about this.

Sex is biological. Gender is like personality, sexuality, non physical, gender is also a societal construct. Every society, every culture has differing opinions on gender roles.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21#:~:text=The%20World%20Health%20Organisation%20regional,expression%2C%20and%20how%20they%20behave.

The World Health Organisation regional office for Europe describes sex as characteristics that are biologically defined, whereas gender is based on socially constructed features. They recognise that there are variations in how people experience gender based upon self-perception and expression, and how they behave.

https://dictionary.apa.org/gender

Sex usually refers to the biological aspects of maleness or femaleness, whereas gender implies the psychological, behavioral, social, and cultural aspects of being male or female (i.e., masculinity or femininity).

1/2 alrighty, will try to reply to everything within two comments within the word limit. with the phycological, behavioral, social, and cultural aspects of being male or female, I have two things to say: firstly, what are these aspects, and also, just because you don't conform to these aspects, does that mean you're the opposite sex? with my first statement in this reply (what're these aspects) a lot of these are based on stereotypes - a presumed behavioral aspect of being female is being gentle, polite, submissive, etc. all the stuff about girls liking the colour pink and wearing dresses - cultural (and stereotypical) aspects of being a girl. likewise with all the other stuff you mentioned, psychological and social and so on. however, if a boy - that is, a human male (XY chromosomes) - takes on all these aspects of being female, does that actually MAKE him female? nope. boys can be gentle, quiet, like sewing, wearing dresses, etc, but none of these things actually make him a girl.

Thought experiment for you. You are female right? Your sex and gender are both female? Over night your brain is magically transported into the body of a man. Are you, your identity, personality, etc the very essence of you? Are you still a woman?

considering I'm a lesbian woman who has short hair, only wears trousers and all the other stereotypes of being a man, I guess my gender / presentation / attitude would actually be male? concerning the thought experiment where my brain's magically transported into the body of a man - I guess I'd be male due to chromosomes, reproductive system, etc, although it'd cause a little discomfort due to having lived in a female body all my life. but there's no such thing as a male brain or a female brain, so if I'd been born in a male body I doubt it'd have made a difference though. cool analogy though!

Your representation does not make you male, how you FEEL makes you male or not.

what does "male" FEEL like?

To say you would be male BECAUSE you are in a male body suggests you are non binary. You do not have a gender identity as such, you use your biological body to determine your gender identity. My brain in a woman's body I, my identity, my personality would still be male. Put a transgender male brain into a man's body, he would be male living in a male body, he would no longer be transgender.

nope, my point was that whether you're male or female is defined by your body - if you have a Y chromosome, your sex is male, so if I were to be in a male body and have a Y chromosome, I would be objectively male, regardless of my brain. my point is we don't have sexed brains, our mind isn't objectively male or female, and to say so is essentially reinforcing the binary a lot of people want to destroy. if you do believe that brains / minds are either male / female, please tell me what defines the brain's sex, what makes a brain / mind male or female?

Using the body to define male and female, only tells you what your biological sex you are. Not your gender. The brains is not objectively male or female I agree, gender is a spectrum just like sexuality. I define my brain as male because my, brain, therefore my mind and my identity is male. My brain containing my male identity, into a biological woman's body, I would still be a man, just in a woman's body.

2/2 likewise, if a girl only wears trousers, has short hair, is loud and aggressive, gets into fights, likes sports, all the rest of it, does that make her a boy? again, nope. the problem with gender is that it's just all the stereotypes and expectations of being male or female lumped into one word, and then that word is used to describe whether you're male or female. as well as this, in terms of social constructs - this is a quite vague however I'll assume it's whether you're socially raised in terms of masculinity and femininity and in terms of the stereotypes of a girl's presumed preferences and behavioral traits and likewise with a boy's. first, this rules out the need for gender transition since if someone's gender is female they're just conforming to the stereotypes of femininity, not actually the state of womanhood - actually being a woman. however, your biological sex is biological truth: even if a woman has short hair, wears trousers, calls herself a "he", she's still a woman.

There is being a "tom boy", a woman can act like a man. That is one thing, With gender, it is about your identity, you do not just act like a man, you FEEL like a man, you think of yourself as a man. Without checking your genitals, your voice in your head, your mind is male. I have known many tom boys, they still identified as women, very much so. Being tom boy is different to being a transgender man.

ah, the old "you FEEL like a man" card. was wondering when you'd bring this up. what does feeling like a man actually feel like? likewise with women, what does feeling like a woman feel like? there's no such thing as "feeling like a man" or "feeling like a woman", if you can actually explain this stuff I'll be impressed. likewise, just because if you act like the stereotype of what a woman may be, you're just acting like the stereotype of what a woman may be - you're not actually a woman because of it. and concerning the part with "your mind is male", what makes a mind male or what makes it female? what're the defining features the designated a mind the label of "female" or "male"? my point is, there is no such thing as male minds and female minds, no such thing as male feelings and female feelings.

You are homosexual, how does that "feel", you have an identity, a personality, how does that "feel" you know yourself what and who you are. Why would the gender of transgender people be under scrutiny and not the gender of cisgender people? Brain scans often overlap between males and females, there is no definitive scan for gender, the same is for sexuality, there is overlap. It is down to you as a person to define yourself. You say you are a lesbian, I accept that. You say you are biologically a woman, I accept that. If you say your gender identity is female, I accept that. I do not need scientific proof of any of those, you do not need scientific proof for your identity, I do not have to prove my sex, sexuality or gender to you.

As a man, I cannot describe what it feels like to be a man, but when I wake up in the morning I do not need to check my genitals to know I am a man. I am a man regardless of genitals, I would still be a man if my brain was transported into a woman's body. Being a man is central to my identity, the same as it is to a transgender man.

You are stuck on the physical aspects of biological sex, because it provides a black and white answer of male and female, even though their are physical conditions that can sow doubt on this, 99% of the time you would be right about physiology.

Find a transgender man, ask why they do not identify as a woman who is a tom boy, but a man.

I know I'm a lesbian because I'm sexually attracted to other women - it's not a feeling, it's my sexual orientation. as for "why would the gender of transgender people be under scrutiny and not the gender of cisgender people" - because so-called "cisgender" aren't claiming to be the opposite sex! also, I'm a little confused by much of what you said beyond the point I just mentioned - are you saying that gender cannot be proven by science? anyways, another of my points is that no matter someone's definition of themselves, there is still objective truth: a person standing may be at the point of delusion where they believe they are actually running. they actually, truly believe that they are running. but just because they believe this, in objective reality they are standing. they may identify as running - but they, in fact, are just standing up. regardless of what they believe about themselves, there is still objective truth; the same truth that says triangles have 3 sides and 2 + 2 = 4.

Objective truth? It is not so objective when you have all the varied forms of X and Y's. Biological sex is not as black and white as you seem to think. And again you are talking about biological sex, ignoring gender identity. There is no biological proof of homosexuality, no "gay gene" yet we accept, without testing, peoples statements about their sexuality. The same for gender. It is not a delusion that someone has a gender that is separate to sex. Homosexuality used to be considered a delusion, a mental illness, as it was not the norm, we have learnt from this, being transgender is going through the same process. Can homosexuality be proven by science? Or is that a delusion from the norm?

Sexual orientation is a feeling. It is a part of you. Same sex attraction is often recognised by children early on i life, before sexuality develops, the same with gender as well, a child will often know their gender at a young age, at three or four I believe. So called cisgender? Cisgender people are just people who's gender and sex match. You think transgender people are claiming to be the other sex? That is not correct, Transgender people are claiming to be the gender they are, just like cisgender people, the difference being is their biological sex does not match their gender. That is why transgender people will try, through clothing, make up, hormones, or surgery, to change the appearance of their physical sex to the sex that matches their gender.

(sorry I replied a bit late, my notifications got deleted) I thought you said gender was the socially constructed psychological, behavioral, social, and cultural aspects of being male or female - quoting you. so if a male's gender is female (by that, I mean a man that takes on the cultural roles of a woman, during social interactions calls himself a "she", behaves like the stereotype of a woman, and is psychologically a woman - whatever that means), then his gender may be female, despite female denoting to the SEX that can produce offspring, not gender. so if this is gender, and the psychological, behavioral, social, and cultural aspects of being male or female are what defines gender, then how is it a "feeling"?

2/2 (again, sorry for replying late) I disagree with you on your statement "Same sex attraction is often recognised by children early on i life" - children early on in life do NOT experience sexual attraction, as a Lesbian I can confirm that I did not have an urge to have sex with my friends at seven years old, or any sexual urges until puberty / maturity. also, there ARE some people claiming to be the opposite sex, especially to infiltrate same-sex areas (see Darren Melager, Karen White, Lia Thomas, etc.) for some examples where men have claimed to be women in order to get into women-only spaces and, in some examples, commit sexual crimes and rape women and little girls.

XY does not always mean you are male for example https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/

yup, I read about this stuff - it's the Y chromosome that determines whether someone is male or female. mostly, there are no chromosomal defects / mutations, and most people either have XX or XY, but yes, there are occurrences when someone has XXXXYY or XXXXXXXXXX. however, it's really the Y chromosome that is the deciding factor: if you got it, you're male, if you don't, you're female! so XXXXYY is still male, whereas XXXXXXXXXX is female.

It is an example showing how biological sex is not black and white. A girl who reaches puberty, discovers she biologically male, should she abandon her female gender, her female identity, female name? No, of course not. She is still female.

(replying to Nathaniel's point about a biologically male person who was raised as a girl) a boy who is raised as a girl and accepts this identity without the knowledge that he is actually male is still a male, although his gender may be female. from your statement that gender is the psychological, behavioral, social, and cultural aspects of being male or female, this would be the case - he's extremely feminine, may even pass as a girl, but his sex is male. he's a boy who doesn't conform to the stereotypes of being a boy - but this doesn't change the objective, biological face that he is male.

She might be male biologically but her gender is female, and she lives a female life, she is a woman.

confused by your usage of the word "female" here - what do you mean by "she lives a female life"? since we've already agreed gender is the psychological, behavioral, social, and cultural aspects of being male or female - aka traditions about each sex and the stereotypes around them - why should this dictate whether someone's male or female, especially since "female" literally means denoting to the SEX that can produce offspring, it says nothing to do with gender. does living a female life consist of wearing pink dresses and sewing and cooking and calling yourself a "she"?

She is leading a female life, a woman life? She identifies as a woman. Gender identity develops early in life, young transgender children fell from an early age their gender is different to their biological body.

If you are talking biologically, you have a point, although it is nowhere near as definitive as you think it is. https://www.boredpanda.com/biological-sex-gender-explanation-twitter-thread/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic