no-one has said that

So women being oppressed gives them the right to attack and oppress in turn? Trans people have have been oppressed, villanised, beaten, murdered, thrown in prisons and asylums just for existing. Let's just break the circle of oppression. Please?

There was the instance in Scotland of a male serial rapist who was thrown in a women's prison after identifying as female. To no-one's great surprise, they committed further sexual assaults on the inmates, and were then moved to a men's prison. That's not oppression, that's protection (and common sense) for the women.

@Apathiest... that case in Scotland was bloody ridiculous. I cannot believe officials allowed that to happen. That was a blatant case of "I'm gonna pretend this so I can have access to prey." If by law they had to put that person in a women's prison, they should have been kept strictly in solitary confinement, just like any other prisoner who poses a high risk of being violent to other prisoners.

There has been more than one instance of that happening.

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Sooooo if "don't put trans women in women's prison" is the solution to this situation, how does this work for a cis gay rapist? What about a bi or pan rapist? How about the rapists that aren't actually gay, but after awhile they'll take what they can get? Could it be that this solution is ignoring the really really really obvious common trait in this conundrum in favor of blaming people who have no power to change anything and are already hated and harmed for all the things they have no control of? Nahhhh, it's definitely the trans community that's the problem here!

My suggestion was to put those who are at risk of r@ping other prisoners in some sort of confinement. A fox doesn't fast when it's loose in the henhouse. BP deleted my other comment about what I endured from a trans woman who used her trans status to more easily prey on women, but I think she is a predator who happens to be trans and was a predator before transition. Statistically, there are horrible people in every demographic, and we shouldn't ignore that. But the solution is not to demonize a whole group, but rather to identify individuals who clearly pose risk to others (ie a r@pist who transitions and wants to be in women's prison or a male r@pist of men who wants to be in men's gen pop) and deal with those cases individually, keeping them away from their desired prey. I would have just as much of a problem with a cis woman who preyed on women and girls to be permitted into a change room. If you prove yourself to be a predator, you lose your right to use some public spaces.

No one made that claim. Thanks for coming but you should brush up on your reading skills. How has this person not been down voted with this c**p.

We can't base rules on whether or not people feel 'comfortable' or on any feelings, really. And I'm glad, because who knows what will make anyone feel uncomfortable; the gays, the Blacks, the neurodivergent and the disabled, the people with psychiatric illnesses and the obese know what I mean.

I wish I could have seen her face

I don't remember her face because I was crying so hard at that point. She shut up and ran out, though. I was half afraid that security was going to come in and arrest me for flashing someone. I got TF out of that mall, and I've never gone back.

Wrong bret.

They are not. Just like I'm not a subset of women.

Good for you bigot! Go crawl back into your hole.

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The subset you belong to is called TERF

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Trans women are women. Trans men are men. The end.

And after all that you still want to limit the rights of others? Sorry honey, you really are a bigot, and you are the only one who can help you. Learn to be a better person

As I've said - I have no problem with people being trans. The question is whether, in places where genders are separated (whether they should be is a different question), where those who are psychologically one gender but physically another should be allowed. If women are uncomfortable with biological males being there, then yes, the "rights" of trans people have to be limited. Ideally we'd accommodate all, but that does not currently appear possible. I think it's for women to say if they're uncomfortable; if the majority of women are uncomfortable, then I don't think it's right that they should be forced to accept people who concern them. I think it's naïve to think that everyone has an automatic right to do what they want, regardless of consideration for others (for example, letting off fireworks or playing loud music at 3am).

You realize that you can't always tell if someone is trans, right? If a woman cannot tell that another woman is trans, how is she being harmed? Many trans women do pass. Many of them look prettier than I do. And things do have to sometimes be taken on a case-by-case basis. Look at the Human Rights complaints a trans woman keeps filing in BC against (always racialized immigrant) aestheticians who refuse to wax her non-transitioned genitals. The fact that it's a whole different procedure to wax a shoot and berries and one can cause major injury if they're not properly trained for it, plus the demographic she keeps attacking show that she's weaponizing her trans status to harm women. But it's not fair to punish every trans woman because she's bad.

Thank you, iseefractals. I feel that people don't think women's private spaces are important anymore.

Men and women should both be entitled to their private spaces, but it's absolutely insane to me that people are pretending the consequences and concerns aren't higher stakes for women.

This particular women has had gender affirming surgery, are you saying she should frequent male spaces

People need to stop worrying about if a person is trans and watch instead for harmful, predatory behaviour. Because that is the problem. And predators can be cis women, too.

Cutting of your d**k does not make you a woman.

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You need to talk to a therapist.

Seriously!?!? How often do you need private spaces. The bathroom doesn't count. You people to think of crazy things go on in a bathroom other than what most people do. Pinching off a loaf. Why do you care about people pooping so much?

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How many penises do you see in a bathroom? I don't see them when I use a public bathroom. What do you think goes on in there? Have you ever used a public bathroom?

Feelings are not facts.

I bet I could get you to disagree with that. I bet you feel your feelings are facts.

If only there were a way to prove it :)

I think you don't understand what a women is

Yes a transwomen dominated in womens sports.... by coming in 5th.

There was a trans man, Hergie Bacyadan, who competed in Olympic women's boxing. Bacyadan has never taken hormone therapy; his body is totally natural. He didn't win, but it was brave of him to compete being publicly out, given how transphobic the Philippines is.

Don't bring facts into this conversation. People who hate trans people don't like that!

The examples you refer to in your above are rare should not negate the rights of trans women. It's like saying that women shouldn't be believed because there are some false accusations.

It boils down to this: Your rights stop, where someone elses begin. This refusal to differentiate something that is factually and biologically very, very different, is causing harm. Not theoretical harm, actual, observable harm, and everytime that point is raised people come out of the woodwork to say it doesn't matter.

We do not have all the 'facts' at all and biology is more complicated than xx vs xy. What 'rights' is this woman taking from anyone else by being on a women's app

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It amazes me how confidently stupid you are about this subject. You don't care about t and rights at all. No one is harmed but you want to act like they are. Stop with your bigoted BS..

1/2 If someone has fully transitioned and is living as their affirmed gender and has never shown any predatory behaviour, what is the issue if they are in a women's space? They aren't hurting anyone. And you can't always tell, anyhow. I've been accused of being trans because I have broad shoulders. I'm not. And I've never harmed anyone, so it's insulting to me when someone insists I must keep away from them because they feel threatened by my existence as a not dainty girlie girl. If someone has taken no steps to medical transition, I wonder at their motivation for being in women's only spaces, including sports. I think for sports, someone should have to compete in the gender category they were assigned at birth unless they've undergone full transition and meet average hormone levels of people of their affirmed gender. But athletes who have natural hormonal imbalances should not be forced to "correct" those to be allowed to participate.

Again, the point here is that actual transitioning isn't even a perquisite. Verbalize the claim is the only bar being pushed and it's wrong....and why is that being normalized? What's the alternative? Do genital checks? Demand medical records? Don't really see that happening. As for sports, "full transition" isn't the issue, if someone has gone through male puberty, they have higher lung capacity, denser bones, larger hearts, stronger muscle skeletal system as well as a larger capacity to gain and maintain muscle. I don't recall the name of the swimmer, but when competing against men, they were ranked 300th or something, and as soon as they "transitioned" they became the #1 female swimmer in their segment. In what world can you argue that's fair?

That was Lia Thomas, and her swim career won't go past college. FINA has ruled that, for trans athletes, an MTF person cannot have progressed past Tanner Stage 2 puberty to compete in women's division. She won't be allowed in international competitions. Interestingly, most of the swimmers competing against Thomas defend her right to be there. I think a full transition and hormone requirements should be minimum to be in women's sport, but FINA has gone further than that to ensure no sex-based physical advantage. Where, precisely, is transitioning not a prerequisite? I said the opposite, that it should be. You likely encounter trans women without knowing. Should I have to prove that I'm cis to be in a women's bathroom? No. That's why I wish people would shut up about it. I already have CPTSD. And it is traumatic to be called a man after a lifetime of never being pretty or dainty or feminine enough to suit my culture and faith. I'm a freak already. People like you make it worse.

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Stop and learn basic facts before spouting your bigotry on the Internet. You are a terrible person and need to reflect on that.

2/2 Most elite athletes have some genetic abnormality that give them a physical advantage. We don't ban Phelps from swimming because of his double-jointed ankles. So it's unfair to ban AFAB women from their sports just because they happen to have natural hormonal makeup that improves their athletic performance. What, precisely, are you looking to protect women from? Women who don't look like Southern belles? If you can't even tell if a woman is trans, what harm is there in them peeing next to you? Do we have to do genetic tests at the door?

iseefractals, you have read far too many fear mongering facebook posts, trans women abusing women-only spaces is an extremely uncommon problem. It has happened, just as there are cis women abusing women-only spaces, just as there are cis women who are convicted rapists, just as there are cis women housed with a bewy of new victims. The fact is trans people face significantally higher rates of violence than cis people, you can quote the Office for Victims of Crime and International Journal for Equity in Health on that. The point being, "man in wig" is extremely diminishing to a group of people who actually, factually, face a significantly high rate of violence. And that shows you're not taking this topic very seriously. It shows you're not taking women's rights seriously altogether as you have to resort to name calling, cherry picked examples and twisted statistics to support your implication trans women are somehow hurting the fight for women.

You get that when i say "man in a wig" that i'm talking about a CONVICTED RAPIST, who claimed to be trans, during the trial, and remained very much biologically and physically MALE. This isn't a hypothetical, it happened, and it took months of very vocal backlash before it was remedied. People like you want to pretend that people who claim to be trans are all virtuous, suffering victims. No one could possible take advantage right? It's a fantasy, and by engaging in that fantasy you're basically saying "oh well, so what if a few women get raped, abused, or suffer mental and emotional trauma, and so what if some women get deprived of opportunities, the narrative of trans acceptance is more important than reality" I'm taking it seriously, people like you pick and choose what to count, vilify and dismiss anyone that doesn't pander to whatever narrative social media has told you is correct.

@Iseefractals, that was an individual incident where some very unintelligent officials mightily screwed up. In over four decades of life, I have met exactly one predatory trans woman, and she was a predator pre-transition as well (friend ran a background check). I don't believe she transitioned to make it easier to prey on women; I believe she simply takes advantage of being trans to continue the behaviour she's always engaged in. The physical toll of transition surgery and hormone treatment is extreme; there are easier ways to find prey. I have met hundreds of kind, lovely, gentle, compassionate trans women who just want to live their lives authentically. I would also remind you that cis women do r@pe other women, and it happens frequently in prisons. We need to ferret out individual predators, not label an entire group.

You seem to be missing the point that a transwoman did not commit this offence - a cis het man did.

Who cares! You anecdotal evidence is s****y. Just stop.

You don't seem to understand what anecdotal means, and simply because you avoid facts that you dislike because they disprell the narrative you so desperately support, doesn't negate that those facts exist.

Anecdotal information isn't "facts". It is a singular one time thing that smart people don't extrapolate over an entire population. You just aren't smart enough to realize that.

Anecdotal: based on hearsay rather than hard facts.....i have given specifics, which anyone with any interest in understanding reality can easily verify. That you refuse to do that, doesn't make what i've said untrue. YOU continue to try to excuse anything that goes against your narrative on the basis that "it's not a lot" So lets extrapolate on that. Does that mean a little child abuse is acceptable? Theft? Murder? Where's the line according to you? People like you fail to grasp the fact that all of this is death by a thousand cuts, because where you make allowances in one area, it becomes the expectation that that same allowance is made across all situations, again, not theoretical. But simple minded, tribalistic identity obsessed people like you, attempt to reduce every disagreement, criticism, question, or acknowledgement of the fact that other people exist with feelings just as valid as, equating to hatred or bigotry. Grow up.

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Actual rights that women had to fight for do not include women-only spaces, afaik. When improper distinction between the sеxes was outlawed, so was the assumption that men are inherently dangerous to women.

There are scholarships, grants, assistance and job placements, female athletics, prisons, schools, shelters, treatment programs specifically for women. There was a serial rapist in scotland not long ago, who while on trial with a sure conviction, decided to invoke the "self identification" threw on a terrible wig, and some discount womens clothing. And ya know what? That man, convicted of raping two women, was sent to a female prison! That's not the only instance, but it's certainly the most transparent, does that seem like something that should even be a possibility to you?

This is why no one with a penis should be behind bars in a women's prison.

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Did you eat paint chips as a kid?

This is awful if true, but down to the individual case. Every genuinely trans woman shouldn’t be then vilified for the action of one ‘man’ in this instance. This case is again a MAN who has played the system and not a true trans female

It is very sadly true, and again not the only instance of someone who is physically male being sent to a women's prison. Everyone keeps trying to frame this issue as vilifying transwomen....when it's actually about protecting and respecting the rights and wishes of biological women. We've already seen that the stance of activists is that they won't allow for any objectivity on a case by case basis, the mentality is "self identification" should be accepted in every case less someone get their feelings hurt.....and that mentality ensures that stuff like this will continue to happen, and women will be forced to live with those consequences.

@iseefractals, possibilities aren't reality. The Scotland incident is an isolated one. It is abhorrent, and there are some officials who should be fired and charged, but that doesn't mean that every transwoman is out to harm women.

I guess women who are convicted of raping women are put in men's jail too right?

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You can't be this stupid? Can you?

These are rare cases and guess what - the harm wasn't done by a trans woman, it was done by cis het males! - if this particular women should be sent to prison where would you send her - male or female prison?

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I was waiting for that example, and there is another one, I believe. Let's deny everyone every right that's ever been abused.

@Bartlet, you're wrong there. Part of women's rights is the acknowledgement of the prevalence of violence against women and our right to safety from that. Before women's rights took hold, women were blamed for their husbands' abuse, for getting r@ped, etc. We had to fight for the right to not be held responsible for what someone else does to us and the right to justice. I don't believe that a blanket ban on trans women from changerooms is going to do anything to keep women safer from gender-based violence, though.

@Insomniac Maybe I'm too far ahead of the curve here. Not the first time: when marital rape was criminalized in the Netherlands (1991), I was flabbergasted it was apparently legal before. To me, the ability to choose to be free from violence is a human right and not gender specific, but the downvotes show me not everyone agrees. Maybe you're right and women's rights still need a little more emphasis.

@Bartlet, most gender-based violence is directed at women, and we have to acknowledge that in order to deal with it. There are women-only gated villages being built in Africa because the women are so tired of dealing with r@pe. There is no need for an equivalent of men-only villages, because men aren't getting r@ped all that often in Africa.

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Maybe you are inherently dangerous. Thanks for letting us know that you can't handle a public bathroom.

Transgender and transvestite is not the same thing. It's the nature of language to evolve, if it didn't we'd still be grunting and wouldn't have modern words like computer, internet, modem, robot, microwave, rocket, click-and-collect, fatbergs, Brexit etc.

Trans women are ‘transgender’ as in transitory gender, moving from one to another. A transvestite is one gender dressing or assuming the identity of one temporally. An important distinction. One you should be familiar with before spouting rhetoric concerning definitions

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If people like you would just stop villanising trans women and trying to take away their right to exist, we wouldn't need to keep telling people that trans women are women.

JFC....no one is villainizing trans women.....it's very much not about trans women, it's about protecting and respecting the rights and feelings of biological women. Lets try it like this: Men, rape and abuse women, fairly often, right? Objective reality. Is that statement true of most men? Of course not. So by acknowledging objective reality, are we "villainizing" all men? Pretty dumb and reductive argument, isn't it? Now....account for the fact that "self identification", which is the literal expectation that EVERYONE be taken at their word, means that some of those "bad" men.....could very easily take advantage....in fact you don't have to imagine, it's already happening, and it's going to continue happening so long as people like you attempt to reduce every criticism, concern and question as an attack on the existence of transness.

Exactly. Women know not every man is a rapist. Yet there are enough rapists that pose a threat to women that all men are excluded from women's toilets, women's locker rooms and women's prisons. If any man can now access those places because he says he "feels like a woman" then the safeguarding of those single sex provisions for women is gone and meaningless. It also makes no sense that a trans woman is believed when they say they need to be in the women's bathrooms/prisons/locker rooms due to the threat posed by men, but women are not believed for saying the same thing and instead are being called bigots and being shamed into silence.

No-one's saying they don't have a right to exist. The debate is whether they should have access to female-only spaces.

Debating if women belong in female only spaces is weird.