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Philosophers and writers have long debated the roles people have played in influencing the progress of civilization. While Thomas Carlyle, for example, felt that great figures are key to guiding us forward, Leo Tolstoy, on the other hand, was of the belief that no individual can single-handedly steer the course of humanity, no matter what position they held.

Regardless of what the case might be, there are two kinds of people: those who are forgotten and those who live on in our collective memory. In an attempt to figure out if some of the latter are getting undeserved praise, Reddit user TGYHJDFGH made a post on the platform, asking everyone: "What beloved person in history should be hated?" and it was immediately flooded with answers.

But before you scroll down to check them out, I want to make things a little bit more interesting and/or complicated for you. Tell me, can we judge someone's morals after hundreds of years, when the entire cultural landscape has changed course? And where do we draw the line between what we can and cannot accept about someone's personal life if their work has transcended time and allowed countless people to find meaning?

I know, these are pretty tough questions. But humans are walking contradictions and it would be irresponsible to instantly dismiss the legacy of, say, the Founding Fathers or Mother Teresa.

#1

Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Christopher columbus...didnt discover s**t and brought misery wherever he went.

sticksnXnbones , wiki Report

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Aran Lindvail
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2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

This needs to be higher. Columbus was THE WORST. Slavery, murder, torture, you name it.

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    #2

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Mother Theresa. My father was a taxi driver in Australia and one of his customers was a man who'd been raised in Mother Theresa's orphanage. He said she beat him terribly.

    Another user also added: She was obsessed with preventing wartime sexual abuse victims from getting abortions.

    Her order sold babies.

    She buddied up to dictators and accepted stolen cash from them.

    Collected millions in donations and never spent them on her "houses of the poor" which were vermin infested crapholes where people went to die.

    Refused pain medication for the dying and ill because she believed suffering = being close to god.

    Had nothing but top of the line medical care for herself.

    20thCenturyCobweb Report

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    Lucifer
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Teresa was a horrible human being. She believed that only through pain you can reach Christ, so let the people suffer in her care. And it was backed by the Catholic Church so that she can convert as many people as possible to Christianity. And the Western world backed her with billions in donations. (Read 'Missionary Position' By Christopher Hitchens)

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    #3

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Thomas Edison. I’ll never forgive him for what he did to Tesla.

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    Nunya Business
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    He electrocuted an elephant to death to prove his point about AC/DC electricity and I will forever detest him for that.

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    #4

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Ronald Reagan - moved somewhere between 50-80 TRILLION from middle class to upper 1%. Ruined America!

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    Lucifer
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Reagan is the reason why America is in such a mess right now. He was the original cult leader, before Trump took over the GOP.

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    #5

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Coco Chanel was a goddamn Nazi spy. Yes, she was an incredible designer, and she's probably one of the most influential humans of the 20th century, based on the number of people who have worn clothing directly inspired by her over the past 100 years. She really did change the way women dress in a truly radical way, and I respect that - knitwear, feminized menswear, ditching the corset, transforming black into an everyday color, the essential skirt suit, costume jewelry, synthetic fragrances in perfume, the list goes on.

    But she was a goddamn Nazi spy. Coco was a wretched anti-Semite, like so many other members of the European elite during the 30s. She dated a number of staggeringly wealthy British aristocrats and they'd all sit around talking about the Protocols of Zion and s**t, trying to figure out whether any members of the royal family were secretly Jews, etc. When war broke out, the two Jewish brothers who ran her perfume empire (aka Chanel No 5, the best selling perfume in the world then and now) had to flee to the US for safety. How did Coco respond? By writing to the Nazis to ask them to transfer ownership over to her, a good Aryan, so she could make more money. But that's not the half of it.

    She fell in love with a dashing German spy named "Spitz" who'd been seducing bluebloods all over France and England for years leading up the war. Coco was a useful woman - she was simply one of the richest women in the world, and she knew everyone in the British aristocracy, including her old hunting buddy and dear friend, Winston Churchill himself. She and Spitz socialized with all the biggest Nazi names in town, especially Otto Abetz, the Nazi ambassador to France, who invited them to every party in town. Spitz convinced her to join the Abwehr (aka the German secret service) and make trips to Spain. Operating under the code name "Westminster", she attempted to broker a "separate peace" between Germany and England. (In the meantime, she may or may not have reported at least one woman at the Hotel Ritz whom she suspected of being Jewish to the SS.) She had a grand old time going on her adventures, and wrote about the excitement of working for the Abwehr in her private notes.

    Chanel was arrested only a few days after the liberation of Paris - absolutely everyone in town knew what she'd been doing and who she'd been doing it with - but for rEaSoNs UnKnOwN she was released without charges. It's widely believed that Winston Churchill personally intervened. It might be because the two of them had been close friends for decades. It might be because she was going to embarrass the s**t out of Britain by outing all the anti-Semites and pro-Nazis in the British aristocracy - including the recently abdicated Edward VIII who used his f***ng honeymoon as an excuse to tour Nazi Germany and shake Hitler's hand. She spent the rest of her life being a nasty, bitter morphine addict living in the Hotel Ritz. The House of Chanel has very, very little to say about the matter, and every few years a few more bits of damning evidence are declassified from the vaults.

    If you want to learn more, I did a whole episode about her Nazi days in my French history podcast: "The Collaborator"

    overduebook , wiki Report

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    Eric G
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Add Henry Ford and Walt Disney to this list. Both noted anti-semites.

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    #6

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Pablo Picasso, he was misogynistic and sexually assaulted women

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    #7

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Gandhi. After learning all the colorist and racist s**t he would say to those who had darker complexion or those of African descent in my 8th grade year i haven’t seen him the same.

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    #8

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Bill Cosby. America's dad. Up until those allegations started

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    Leo Domitrix
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    he had creepy eyes IMO even when I was little, and being little, I'd say "creeper eyes"...

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    #9

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Woodrow Wilson.

    Guy was majorly racist, segregated the military, kicked black people out of the government, he screened a KKK movie in the White House and was a strong defender of the KKK. Even for his time he was considered racist

    starcraft_al , wiki Report

    #10

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers PT BARNUM.

    Most people know but due to the romanticization of The Greatest Showman, people should know that he was a maniac that did an ungodly experiments on living beings, locked people in cages, abused them, and mocked them. All whilst earning pocket from them.

    RogueVogueDino Report

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    Florence
    Community Member
    2 years ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    i loved the greatest showman and i knew these things but i didn’t realize how the greatest showman was covering up the true stories of how shitty he was

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    #11

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers John Lennon. Treated like s**t during his childhood, whinges about it his whole life, then does the exact same thing to his son Julian.

    BigMattress269 , wiki Report

    #12

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Based on personal experience with Oprah Winfrey at Barnes Municipal Airport on New Years Eve in 1991, I would say it would have to be her. Cosby's private jet brought her and Steadman into the airport under cover of darkness to go to the Cosby estate up North. I watched from the tower and she shoved a lone child out of the way and slammed the door to the limo. All the child wanted was an autograph. Oprah's kindness and compassion was an act. If she didn't get something out of it, she was quite capable of stepping on feelings of a lone child when the cameras were not on her

    LeoEmptor , wiki Report

    #13

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Elvis Presley. He groomed a then 14 year old and slept with her while he toured.

    YellowB , wiki Report

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    #14

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers King Edward the VIII was a nazi sympathizer who possibly colluded with the Germans to retake the throne in the event of an invasion and conquest of Britain.

    He wasn’t just a love sick romantic who gave up his kingdom for a woman.

    mwm1980 , wiki Report

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    Joy
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The royal family have more secrets than the Vatican and are just as determined to hold onto the devotion, worship and wealth.

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    #15

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Steve Jobs. The way he treated his family is horrible.

    iameshwar_raj , wiki Report

    #16

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Alfred Hitchcock, the guy probably was one of the best filmmakers ever, yes. but it's worth mentioning how much he abused his actors, including sexually harassing Tippi Hedren

    RingoStarAllies , wiki Report

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    Joy
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Indeed. He was a miserable sonofabitch who used his skill to belittle, mock and humiliate actresses.

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    #17

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Not quite beloved, but Joseph P. Kennedy Sr..

    He decided that Rosemary (his daughter) who was 23 at the time should have a lobotomy; he did not inform his wife of this decision until after the procedure was completed. And then they sent her away to an institute.

    In her early young adult years, Rosemary Kennedy experienced seizures and violent mood swings. In response to these issues, her father arranged a prefrontal lobotomy for her in 1941 when she was 23 years of age; the procedure left her permanently incapacitated and rendered her unable to speak intelligibly.

    Sick f**k, who would do this to their own child.

    renaissancemonse , wiki Report

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    Leo Domitrix
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    "Who would do this to their own child". In that era? Quite a few people, unfortunately. The lobotomy at that time was peddled as a "cure" ----- they truly didn't know better.

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    #18

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers 8000 comments so it might be here Apparently John Wayne needed to be restrained from assaulting a native American actress in the 70s at the academy awards or something. I think her name was Sacheen Little feather. And Clint Eastwood allegedly was mocking her too.

    b10h454r8_y , wiki Report

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    Eric G
    Community Member
    2 years ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    John Wayne was definitely racist. Remember the playboy article where he said “I believe in white supremacy,” he said, and spoke harshly about African Americans, saying, “We can’t all of a sudden get down on our knees and turn everything over to the leadership of the blacks.” “I don’t believe in giving authority and positions of leadership and judgment to irresponsible people,” he said. This is just the tip of the iceberg. And Clint Eastwood talks to invisible people in chairs.

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    #19

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Einstein wasn’t a great guy. Brilliant, sure, but kinda douchy in his personal life.

    He refused to marry his long time lover for years, even after she got pregnant. The child was assumed to be given up for adoption, but no record has ever been found.

    He and his wife, Mileva Marić, worked together on their research. People saw them do it. They made jokes about it at parties. He proudly told people that she did all his calculations. They only put his name on their work and he went on to claim all the credit - ignoring any work she had done. Part of their agreement was that she would get the Nobel prize money but he tried to prevent that.

    She raised two children - one schizophrenic - took care of the house and tutored to bring in extra money because he couldn’t get a job for a long time. He started getting more notoriety and then began an affair with his first cousin.

    He moved to a different country to be with his new hillbilly mistress. He divorced his wife and quickly married the new, younger model. He had rules she had to abide by, such as leaving the room immediately when told and not expecting or asking for any sort of affection except when necessary for appearances sake.

    Elsa, his second wife, was dying and he worked nonstop because he didn’t know what to do (I guess). She was basically abandoned her last few months.

    He cheated on both his wives, numerous times. Ignored his children. Oh - and he was pretty into his second wife’s daughter and thought about marrying her instead.

    Miss_Adventures123 , wiki Report

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    Bee she/her
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    About the missing child, there is a series called The Missing By Marget Peterson Haddix, book fives discusses it

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    #20

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Charles Dickens had his wife, the mother of his children, committed to an insane asylum so he could run off with a teenage actress.

    Edit- I have been informed that this wasn't successful, he tried to have the mother of his ten children committed but it didn't work. Which is still quite bad

    Spacebarman010101 , wiki Report

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    Tigerpacingthecage
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    People (men, or ok "not all men") still try to label women as crazy or mentally unfit to get what they want.

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    #21

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Joseph Smith-

    I grew up LDS and left with my family when I was in junior high. After some reading and learning from historical documents without church bias, I realized how drastically different he was when he wasn’t viewed in the eyes of the church.

    LocalWitch56 , wiki Report

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    Tonya Wallace
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Joseph Smith...Big pimpin' (I saw that on a t-shirt that I regret not buying. 😭)

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    From generations of experience, the Mormon church, Mormonism, all of it is a disgusting lie, and most of it all is just to cover up mediocre white men's desires to f*ck virgins, spread their seed, keep out others, and then be worshipped as gods themselves. It's the most sad, pathetic inept male fantasy that hundreds of stupid people back in the day, including my ancestors, fell for. There is nothing redeeming about Mormons/LDS.

    Your Queen
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I mean, have you ever taken the time to maybe go to their church and meet a few of them? All my friends and neighbors are Mormons, and they and their families are nothing like this. I have yet to meet one even close to this, and I know many of them very well. True, you will always find bad people in every religion, but I don't think you should be so quick to judge. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Let them believe what they wanna believe. No hate, I just feel like they are kind people.

    Edward Cook
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" is just a lie by omission.

    P. Mozzani
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Mrs. Jan Glass's opinion may not be your reality, but it is hers. She's entitled to hers, as are you to yours.

    Carole Reid
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Read about "Mountain Meadows" or Gary Gilmore. Or the sects that still practice Polygamy. And if you don't tithe or by extra groceries, you can go on the S---list. All made up just like all religions.

    Freya the Wanderer
    Community Member
    1 year ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Read "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer about a splinter group of Mormons who practice polygamy and treat their women like trash

    Richard Portman
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    They are kind and generous most of them. I live in Mormon country too. They have a history of suicide and child abuse, they have a history of not seeing things, they have a history of feeling persecuted, they have a history of being annointed by a special prophecy. I like living with the Mormons, they are good decent people, but after a lifetime in Utah, i am still not saved.

    Rayne
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Agreed. Most of them do seem like very kind people. I'm an ex-mormon, and I do like their message of love and family, however I left after I learned more about the history and dug deeper into their beliefs, and I decided it just wasn't for me. Sorry if this offends anyone. Also, not trying to be mean but Mrs. Jan Glass, it's okay to not like a religion but maybe don't just say that it's a disgusting lie and the people who believe it are stupid. Let people believe what they believe. Hope you have a good day/night :)

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Sorry, Rayne, but after what I've heard some of the bishops and elders say, it's disgusting. These "kind" people are perfectly willing to doxx and harass gay kids or kids whose parents divorce, and I've seen it firsthand multiple times. Know what happens when a couple Nazis show up to your bar and you don't kick them out? It means you're running a Nazi bar. It's not about being offended. It's about being abused. Mormonism is 100% abusive.

    Manners are free
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    You have to remember these people are still human. There is definitely a problem with ahole men at church but it’s not doctrine. I’m a 30 yr member now and I’ve had quite a few bad experiences with men claiming the priesthood gives them power but it’s not doctrine. The doctrine promotes love, compassion and we only worship God. We don’t even worship Jesus or the modern day prophets. I also know many many gay people ,including my own daughter, that have only had positive and loving interactions with members. Just remember if we were all perfect then we wouldn’t need church. 😁

    Your Queen
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    That was literally like the most mature response ever and I wish I could've put it like that. Lol

    Your Queen
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    No! You cannot judge a group of people based off of a few. You need to stop being so aggressive. They are kind people and not at all like you are saying. Just be kind, you don't have to like it, but don't be mean. I have never met a Mormon that is anything like you are describing.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I've seen it firsthand all my life, so no, I will not stop. The Mormon church is abusive, from the top down.

    P. Mozzani
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Mrs. Jan Glass's reality may not be yours. Respect the difference.

    Mary Jaye
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    we are all allowed to express how we feel. I think he's a creep.

    Troux
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I would also like to add that the Mormon Family Home Evening is a great concept and should be more widely accepted in secular circles.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    This simply isn't true. I am a Mormon, and I was taught all about Joseph Smith's failings growing up. This was a central subject of our Seminary class. As for the politics of "attack anyone before they attack us" this also is not true. The Mormons had been forced out of many states, and in Missouri an "extermination order' was issued, allowing Mormons to be killed without legal repercussions. Hundreds of Mormons were killed during this movement, but the only situation I can think of where the Mormons themselves committed murder would be the Mountain Meadows Massacre, which occurred after Joseph's death, without the approval of church leaders, by two disgruntled members who were excommunicated and later executed.

    Your Queen
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Yes, I remember my friends talking about this. He was shot right?

    Saucy Aussie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Alright, I’ve read all of your comments on this post, and you have a serious issue. You are saying completely untrue things, and being incredibly hateful towards Mormons for personal reasons alone. You may have bad experiences with LDS members, but there is no reason on earth for you to say these horrible things just because you disagree with this religion. Get some therapy and complain about your problems elsewhere. Nobody wants to see this amount of negativity, especially those who are part of this religion.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Until your religion returns multiple dead family members to me, until your religion undoes the harm it's done to the LGBTQ+ community, and until your religion stops marrying girls to abusive men, I will continue to speak out. Yes, I have a serious issue, because your church is openly abusive, and MILLIONS of others will confirm this. There is every reason to keep talking about the crimes and immoral behaviors perpetuated by your church. If you don't want to "see this negativity," then Mormons need to stop being homophobic pedophiles who support domestic violence, cheating the elderly, and sex abuse. It's time for you to pull your head out of the sand and face the truth of what your religion promotes. "Kind" people don't tell gay kids that they're going to burn in hell and disown them. "Kind" people don't look at an abused, pregnant teen bride and tell her she has a duty to stay with her husband and lead him to God. Your religion is sick.

    Manners are free
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Wow I think u may be confused and are talking about the reformed Mormons led by Warren Jeff’s. He is all those thing s but the LDS church has nothing to do with his cult. He is in prison for all those reasons and is still running his church from jail. The regular church does none of these practices.

    Ada Hunter
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    lol i’m mormon and bisexual and they haven’t treated me any different. still kind, loving people.

    Maxwell Mulcock
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    bruv I'm a gay mormon and everyone in the church still respects me. I was always able to do the same things as all the other men.

    Your Queen
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    First of all, they don't marry their kids off, they support the people of LGBTQ (I had a very good conversation with a few of them (separately) And every single one of them said they don't support the idea, but they support the people) I don't agree with it, but they are not even close to as bad as you are saying. Go to their website https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/?lang=eng and look up the law of Chasity. Everything they are about is the complete opposite you are making them to be. They are a kind people, and have saved my life. BE KIND PLEASE!

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    "They're kind people!" is literally the argument people make about Nazis. I would like to suggest any one of you who has accused me or others of lying about Mormons try one thing. I mean it. If you are a woman, go to your bishop, and tell him that you need help getting out of an abusive marriage/relationship. Tell him (and it's ALWAYS him, isn't it, which is another problem) that your husband hits you. Forces you to have sex when you don't want it. Won''t let you get a job. Takes your paycheck if you have a job. Tell him that YOU NEED HELP LEAVING AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP, that you need a safe place to stay, that you need to find a job and a home and safe shelter for you and your children. Go on. Do it. If you are a man, go tell your bishop that you are gay, and want to marry a partner of the same gender, but you want to still be a good, faithful, and practicing Mormon. See how "supportive" they are. Give it a couple weeks. Give it a month. See how supportive and "kind" they still are.

    Manners are free
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Actually I have known women to do exactly that and told to leave the relationship. Your still branding some peoples actions with doctrine that isn’t the same thing

    Aika Aika
    Community Member
    2 years ago

    This comment has been deleted.

    Tamra Stiffler
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    All of you who are saying your church is great, your experience is great, and that Jan Glass needs to be "kind"...sorry, but I call bull s**t. I'm truly glad you've found acceptance and love there, I really am, but she clearly has not. And she's not the only one. She is absolutely allowed to talk about her experience without all of you piling on and telling her she's wrong, or that she should be more kind about it. If you're uncomfortable hearing about her experience, then maybe it is YOU who should be more kind, and practice what you preach.

    CharlieKaye
    Community Member
    2 years ago

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    I dont understand what you are saying lol. got isnt real? religion isnt real? what are you coming at?

    marianne eliza
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Any "religion" or cult that takes many women and young girls as sex partners or "wives" is just a child and women abuse system. No exceptions. None.

    Eulalie Grace
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Aisha, daughter of Abu-Bakr was a beautiful little girl. Muhammad married her when he was fifty three years old and she was only six years old. He had intercourse with her when she was nine years old. (Wives of the Prophet, pages 57-61).

    Leo Domitrix
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    This. When you take it without the LDS lens, you realize that LDS members are taught to view him with unquestioning adoration. Eventually Smith's politics became "attack anyone outside our church before they attack us". For those wondering if they've encountered a Mormon? If you read Twilight? Its author is Mormon, and IIRC, practicing. Yep, sparkly vampires...

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Twilight is called "Mormon Abstinence Pr0n" for a reason, after all. Prized virginity? No sex until marriage, but marry at 18 instead of college/job/life and it's all twinkly-perfect? Have a baby that's already found a husband before it says its first word? "Imprinting"? Yeah, that's straight out of the Temple mentality.

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    Leo Domitrix
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    In fairness, LSD would account for some of his "visions"...

    Adrienne Doyle
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    So true, considering he might have found some shrooms in that grove he claimed to have his "visions."

    Lisa Monzon
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I think he built an entire religion around his pedophilia.

    Peryton
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    It's true. Mormon ism is just an excuse for men to create power and own women.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Actually, it's documented history. Just because you don't like it or want to pretend it didn't happen doesn't make it not true.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Charlie, you are perfectly capable of going to the library and checking out books. No matter what I tell you, you will insist I'm lying, because you are still in the middle of it. Even abused spouses still married to their abusers insist that they're happy, and their partner REALLY loves them, deep down. Speaking of abused spouses, I was counting up all of the Mormon women in my family who have been in abusive marriages -- often until death, either theirs, their husbands, or the baby/child he murdered -- and I'm up to 54 now. Want to hear about my good Mormon great-grandfather who left his first wife with 9 kids, because it was the Depression, and disappeared. A decade later, he turned up in Nebraska, polygamously married, and had 7 more kids with Wife 2. So sure, the church doesn't support abuse, polygamy, pedophilia, homophobia, or any of that, but gosh! It sure does still happen a whole lot!

    K Wit
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Most religions have been founded by a pedophile some were convicted pedophiles. I really can't think of any religion that wasn't founded by a man that wanted an excuse to have sex w children and physically abuse the women that carry their next conquest.

    K Wit
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Organized religion is the monster not if an individual believes in a god or is spiritual

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    And religion is why people refused to mask up during a pandemic, killing millions, and why "good Christians" think that screaming in my face that I'm a sl*t is "Jesus's love." We'll be kind when religious people start being kind.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Most religious people I know are very kind. "Good Christians" are polite and kind to everyone. But even if they weren't, even if religious people were absolutely awful, that still isn't a reason for you to be awful as well.

    Your Queen
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The world will never be kind, so you need to put on your Big-Boy pants and be kind first.

    Peryton
    Community Member
    2 years ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Be kind? Religion has been used to justify some of the most unbelievable, atrocious violence against other human beings so I don't care at all about a religious person's "feelings", organized religion is a disease, the wrongs outweigh the good no matter how you look at it. If you can't handle criticism of your faith then I guess it's not a good religion is it?

    Your Queen
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    It's not even my faith, I just know that they have treated me kindly, and I don't like people being mean

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Oh, well as long as they've been kind to YOU, who cares about all of the abused women and children, the homophobia, the massive numbers of suicides- Selfish and self-centered to the end.

    Thomson StClair
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    "Hey guys, I started a new religion where God says I get to straight up f**k your wives and daughters. Who's on board with me?"

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago

    This comment is hidden. Click here to view.

    Literally nothing and nobody in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does or has done that. Get a real argument, stop spreading lies.

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    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    My family is literally Mormon and has been since the 1850s. Yes, they did. Yes, they do. Yes, you've been fed a pile of lies in order to maintain the status quo.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I must assume you are talking about some splinter sect, because the main Mormon church disproves all of those things. Perhaps your family was not practicing correctly.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The "no true Scotsman" fallacy doesn't work. My family makes up over 100 members of the current Mormon church, and attends services at several of the main temples. They belong to Mormon clubs, and live in Mormon communities. They are absolutely the main Mormon church, and they have been repeating to me for decades the words of your bishops. Sorry, but yet again, just because YOU haven't experienced it doesn't mean it's not true.

    Peryton
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    So many people are attacking you Jan, which of course means you hit a raw nerve.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Peryton, I honestly don't expect people still in the middle of the abusive system to respond positively. You'll notice it's 3-4 specific people here, with little post history, asking questions that I've already answered in an attempt to deflect, because this is also what Mormons do: brigade. We've been doxxed/stalked/threatened IRL by multiple Mormons, so the people here don't even make a dent. However, for the 3-4 Mormons here, I promise you, if and when you come out of Mormonism, I will 100% be there for you. Your church won't be, but those of us who survived the Mormon church will. THAT is actual love and kindness (but it'll take practicing Mormons a lot to acknowledge it. They can't risk their belief system collapsing. I've seen too many family members hold on to Mormonism for DECADES before finally realizing how deeply and profoundly they were lied to). Sadly, they'll never get their tithes back, but at least they have their lives.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Which Mormon church do you mean? There isn't just one. Nothing you have described is permitted in the main denomination. Who are you talking about?

    A Lonely Red Panda
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    So I have a mutual friend named Joseph Smith, and when I saw this post, I thought, like, a time traveler who knew him and wrote this and also thought LDS was LSD. I'm stupid lol.

    Jus
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Same, I was asking myself how can you grow LSD, maybe they meant growing weed? lol

    Lily Flint (Student)
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Hi, I'm Mormon and I agree that Joseph Smith was not the best guy. He practiced polygamy and probably did other stuff too. But I want to say that our religion isn't all bad. There is definitely some stuff I don't agree and there are a LOT of old white men running it and i'm even considering switching religions but there is also a lot of good stuff too. We donate a bunch of stuff to charity, a big part of our religion is helping people, and we are just trying to be our best selves. So it is ok if you guys don't agree with our religion but if you could please not say mean stuff like that it would be great because some of that stuff if really mean and you don't really know about our religion so don't assume you know everything about it. Thank you.

    Jenny Fullerton
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I’m a atheist and I donate a “ bunch of stuff” to charity and I give my time to helping people and I give money to causes that are not popular with mainstream society. I , an Atheist , do these things because it’s the right thing to do and Not because some fairy story person who lives in the clouds told me to. I know a lot of religious people cannot fathom the thought of not having “god” looking over their shoulder and guilting then into behaving like a good person should, but I know I don’t need any relationship with a mythological creature. I do “ good” because it’s the right thing to do and not because a bunch of old white men told me to.

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    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I am also a mormon, I would do the same things regardless of whether or not I was religious, but the point here is that the church has a mostly positive influence on the world. The point is that the church does it's best to help it's members be the best they can. And there's nothing wrong with that. Also, what does the fact that church leaders are white have to do with anything?

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    "Mostly positive influence"? Every queer person in CA would like to differ, for starters. You really need to learn your own church's history, son.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I know my churches history, better than you do, as judged by your false comments. The church has had a massive humanitarian campaign for years. It encourages charity as one of it's main principles, and treating everyone by the Golden Rule. I would like you to find some statistics or actual evidence if you are going to keep arguing.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Charlie, I literally have the forwarded emails from 2008 that Edgley sent out nationally about sending in money to overturn gay marriage in CA. I got them sent to me directly from multiple cousins who are members of the Mormon Temple. So either my Mormon cousins are liars, or you are.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Maxwell, he made multiple public statements, too, and church members discussed it at length multiple times. You don't need me to try to find stuff from my 2008 Hotmail account. You can read it all for yourself. I know you won't, but you can. PS: Pay your effing taxes. https://bycommonconsent.com/2010/10/02/saturday-pm-general-conference-the-hanging-by-a-thread-thread/

    Maxwell Mulcock
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    shut up i am a gay mormon and you are wrong. Dont assume things about large groups of people

    K Wit
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Yes Jenny! Love your comment. Ca we be best friends! Lol

    sanityisnotproven
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I'm ex Mormon and it is true. And it is abusive. And it is wrong. And it's impossible to see it when you are in the middle of it. Especially when the church forbids its members from researching anything about the religion from outside sources. Read non biased, researched work on it. It will open your eyes.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    ...I'm literally a member and the entire focus of our Seminary class is to learn about the church from any source available, to discuss church controversy, and to look at other viewpoints. Nothing about the church is at all abusive.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    "Nothing about the church is at all abusive." Flat out lie. You tell parents to reject their gay children. You force women to marry and stay married to their abusers. You keep your church members poor and reliant on the church community, so they stay trapped. Your church is goddamn poison.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    No woman is forced to marry in our church, that is not true. Parents are not told to reject their gay children. We are taught to love everyone even when we disagree. How do we "keep church members poor"? What, you think the bishops are somehow colluding with the CEO's of companies to keep their members poor? Honestly, could you at least put some effort into these false clams? I can only assume you must have dealt with a splinter denomination of the Mormon church.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Sorry, Charlie, but nothing you've said is true. I've spent 50+ years dealing with your church and its members, and I've seen it all firsthand. I got to help shelter one cousin and her six kids after her good Mormon husband beat the s**t out of her again, because no one in the church would help her, since divorce is a sin. She finally listened to what her bishop told her, and went back to him, and had two more kids with him. One of those kids got to find his body hanging, and my cousin unconscious. I got to go to a funeral for two children, both beaten to death by their "good Mormon" father. I've helped bail out multiple Mormon cousins from jail on drug charges, because when the men aren't beating and raping, they're doing a whole ton of meth. I have 35+ women cousins in my generation alone who were married as teens, have at least 4-6 kids, and are all poor because 1) who can afford that many kids and 2) they have to tithe to the church, first.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    That's before we get to the generations before mine, like my grandfather, who was excommunicated from the Mormon church in SLC because his parents divorced. When he needed his church community the most as a kid, the bishop used to actually drive to Gramp's school, and then FOLLOW HIM HOME IN HIS CAR, screaming out his open window about how he's going to hell because his parents divorced. And let me tell you about my great-grandma, my grandpa's mother, who was told to keep having children, despite her "women's issues." She literally bled to death because of having too many children with endometriosis. Want me to keep going? Your religion, your church, Mormons suck.

    Ada Hunter
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    sounds like you are judging a small portion of a very large number of people. yeah, people can be horrible. but that’s everywhere. not just in the mormon church.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    You can't be excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for your parents divorce. My father's parents were divorced and none of his family was excommunicated. You don't know what you're talking about, or else you are talking about one of the other denominations of Mormonism.

    Ada Hunter
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    haha i’m mormon and know tons of mormons who are lgbtq+ and none of us are rejected.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    And I know several who have killed themselves, Ada. Just because YOU haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Your self-centeredness is one of the many problems here.

    Your Queen
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    And just because you saw a few bad people doesn't mean they all are. Sounds like your family was messed up and I'm sorry they did these things to you, but you cannot punish the rest of them.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Wow. The hypocrisy here is next level. You judge the Church from your own personal experiences and then refuse to let others do the same?

    K Wit
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Karilynn I understand you don't want to hear the bad stuff about what you believe but it's beneficial to you to know all the facts so you can make an informed decision. They take that away from you when they shame your for being curious or threaten you with excommunication bc you question their authority. Believing in god may not hurt others but organized religion was built on exclusion and violence and hatred and slavery in some sense ie women being the third class behind male children while also being the scapegoats for everything evil in Mormonism

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    You seem to have no concept of what the Church is, as nothing you said was true. 1. The church believes men and women are equal partners, and 2., the church encourages and promotes exploring it's history, the good and the bad. My high school seminary class was all for getting into the nitty gritty.

    Tamra Stiffler
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Lily, Jan Glass is discussing horrific abuse that she and her family has endured at the hands of the Mormon church, which has clearly made you all uncomfortable. Your response to her is to shut up, stop talking about it, stop being "mean". Not one of you has bothered to listen to her with an open heart, offered any sort of kindness or empathy. You just want her to shut up. THAT behavior also says a lot about your religion.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Multiple people in my family are dead and/or have killed themselves as a direct result of abuses from the Mormon church. That's before we get into the fact that the Mormon church was instrumental in overturning gay marriage in CA in 2008--and I got all of their propaganda emails about it from my cousins, so don't claim the church wasn't involved. You openly promote racism, pedophilia, homophobia, and domestic violence, and have from the very beginning. You openly embezzle money from your members. So yeah, too bad, we're gonna say "mean things" about your disgusting religion.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    We promote none of those things. "Male or female, bond or free, black or white, all are alike unto God" is a central scripture taught in our church. Our leaders have given many speeches on the evils of racism and other divisiveness. Pedophilia is strictly rejected by the Mormon church. As for homophobia, the church teaches to love our fellow man even when we disagree. Additionally, gay church members can still hold callings. You can continue to be rude if you wish, but I will remain polite.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    So who is lying then, Charlie? My hundreds of Mormon relatives who share all of this with me willingly and openly, because they think it's awesome that the church is pouring money into anti-LGBTQ+ causes? Or you, who is completely unwilling to believe that your religion could possibly hurt anyone? When you yank your head out of the sand, son, you let me know, but I'm done having any sort of exchange with you about your criminal, homophobic, racist, abusive, pedophilia-infested religion.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Probably because you can't produce a shred of actual data or evidence for any of your wild claims.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    No, Ada, I'm not open minded about a religion that has resulted in the deaths and murders of several of my family members, and the abuses of hundreds of others, including myself. You should think that one over. Why are you asking abuse survivors to be "open minded" about our abusers? Because YOU don't like it? It hurts YOUR feelings, upsets YOUR view of the church? I mean it. Sit down and think over why your knee-jerk reaction isn't "protect people" but rather "everyone ELSE is lying!"

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Of course we don't believe you, because literally nothing you mentioned is accepted in the Church. Abusing anyone, in your family or not, is grounds for excommunication. It isn't the Church's fault if your family members were abusive.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Sit down and have a think about this, then. If it's "not accepted by the church", why does it still happen all the time? Why didn't the church help even ONE Mormon member of my family? Why didn't they help the kids, at the very least? If you have a bunch of abusive Mormons in your church, and your church does nothing about it? Guess what! That means your church protects abusers, like the ones in my family. Your church condones abuse. Your church is fine with abuse as long as the tithes keep rolling in.

    TheLadyMagic
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Mormonism wasn't even his first attempt at a religion. He had been run out of several towns for heresy. But something about them go then tablets in that green Angel made this one a go.

    Hollywood94
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    If y'all wanna hear a wild story about a Native American trafficked through the Mormon church and diver deeper into their b******t I highly recommend going to findingNikita.com Her story will blow your mind!!!

    Your Queen
    Community Member
    2 years ago

    This comment has been deleted.

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    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Well that's just rude. Act your age please, just because we aren't talking face to face doesn't mean you shouldn't be polite.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I am under no obligation to be polite to you. You've accused me repeatedly of lying, because you are too fragile to face the fact that your religion has serious problems. Your church is responsible for the deaths and murders of at least a half-dozen people in my family, and that's before we get to the hundreds and hundreds of domestic violence cases. Hey, another one of my cousins begged the church at age 15 to let her work in the office at the SLC temple so she didn't have to marry a 30 year old man, but the elders told her that marriage and childbearing was her real duty, and off she went. She has 7 kids now, 5 in protective custody. She's an alcoholic. The older dude, of course, battered her and the kids, cheated on her constantly, and left her destitute to marry someone else. All of the kids are messed up. SUCH AWESOME FAMILY VALUES!

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Until you provide some evidence, I'm inclined to think you are lying, since nothing you said is approved of by the Church, much less encouraged. Murder is grounds for excommunication. So is any kind of abuse. So is being an alcoholic or doing tons of drugs. Sounds to me like most of your family would have been excommunicated anyways. They weren't living the doctrine if they were in the church.

    Ada Hunter
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    omg can you just stop we get it you don’t like us mormons jeez

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Does it upset you that your church is directly responsible for multiple deaths in one family alone? Did I tell you about my Mormon cousin who had a baby out of wedlock at 17? Less than two years later, she met a "nice Mormon boy" in the Army, online. He was in AZ. Three weeks--WEEKS--after their first exchange, her parents loaded her and her child up in the car to drive them out to Phoenix to marry her good Mormon Army boy. Of course, within three months, she's pregnant again, her "good Mormon Army" husband has smacked her around a few times, and abandoned her. She managed to get back home with friends' help, not the church. When she asked the church for help, she was told that she was lucky he accepted her and her bastard black child, and she needed to put effort into her marriage. Luckily, her oldest daughter was able to finally get out and live with her paternal grandma, while my cousin had 4 more kids with her good Mormon husband who left her two more times. And raped her daughter

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    If your family was part of the main Mormon church, which I doubt by this point, they were not at all living church principles. I don't think your family being messed up relates much to the church at all. Marrying underage, rape, having children before marriage, and spouse abuse are all banned by the church. So if your family was in the church, they are not following the church's teachings. And the church can hardly be blamed for that.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    My grandfather used to point to the main temple in SLC, where my family went since they broke ground on it, and say "Look, there's Brigham Young, with his a*s to the church, and his hand out to the bank." It's the same temple where my great-grandfather and great-great grandfather were Temple Elders. Mormons, one and all, baptised, magical protective undergarments, Temple sealing, Rituals for the Dead, the works. You might want to ask why so many people have stories and knowledge of these special things if they've supposedly been banned? Maybe your church isn't as effective as you thought it was.

    Mary Jaye
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    what is so beloved about this guy? I think he is a hippocryte and a creep.

    Marla Singer
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    He was a total con man, the creation of the Mormon church just happening to be his most successful gambit.

    Manners are free
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    How can u say that. He and his families live were constantly treated. He was feathers and tarred for his beliefs and then imprisoned and killed with his friends and brother. Why would anyone go through that. At any time he could of said it’s all a hoax but he didn’t.

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    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Also, each of the three witnesses left the Church over differences with it's leaders, they all maintained till death that the Book of Mormon was real.

    BUMMERS
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Convicted as a con man-stole from his followers, colossal liar, sexual deviant, failed every test to prove what he was saying. And yet people raced to join his cult. Oops, sorry, that's Trump.

    Kantami Blossom
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    That group is like an Incel dream, the men can have multiple wives who must all be seen and not heard not to mention do all the work whilst the man pretends to be studying his "good book"(the dumbest term ever since there's nothing good about that book).

    Manners are free
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I have never been made to feel less than men in my church and I’ve held callings where what I say is what we do. Some people are jerks like everywhere else but it’s not common or true practice.

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    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    You do realize that polygamy hasn't been practiced for over a century in the LDS church?

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    You do realize that plenty of Mormons still practice it, and promise it in the afterlife, right? Like, I've been sealed and baptized into your church against my will because you idiots think that you get my womb to bear your spirit babies in the afterlife. You're effed up.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Look lady, there are splinter groups to mormanism, but I'm talking about the main denomination, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which has banned polygamy for over 100 years.

    Saucy Aussie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Ok, you don’t have to like this religion, but stop doing this. What you’re saying is incredibly rude to those who are members. Mormons don’t practice polygamy anymore, so stop spreading false information just because you don’t like this religion.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    You know what's rude? That I have been spiritually "sealed" polygamously to several men in my family so that I can bear them spirit babies in the afterlife. This is literally your doctrine. We can read it right now. No, I'm not going to "stop doing this" if by that you mean stop talking about the evil, disgusting, criminal things the Mormon church has done to my family, and that I've seen my family do on behalf of the Mormon church. Wanna talk about proxy baptism, next? Because I am AN ACTUAL MEMBER OF YOUR CHURCH, several times over, thanks to that little trick.

    Danna Holst
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Proxy baptism is for the dead... not living people. And we believe that the dead still have the right to accept or decline the baptism.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    My aunt openly told me she'd had our entire family proxy baptized so we could be together in heaven. I've had to apply to have my name removed from the church's registry. Your church lies to you, and often.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    It's not my doctrine. I can't speak for other denominations of Mormonism, but The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints bans polygamy in any form. I would like to see you find any doctrine at all that says polygamy is still ok in the Church.

    Kantami Blossom
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    There's plenty of Mormons with second and third wives(legally they're girlfriends/mistresses since Bigamy/Polygamy is illegal), and i don't like any religious group that constantly tries to force their faith on you. This world would be a far better and much more peaceful place if religion didn't exist.

    Evelyn Haskins
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    HUH???? I though he was view by all but his followers as a Mad Man and immoral

    Bobbie Meyers
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Didn't this psycho hear from God in a hat....and people believed it?? You're all delusional!

    Martha
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I have been finding out about what MONSTERS there are in the Mormon church from a friend who left. New movie about it I think called CHEWED GUM

    Linda Robinett
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    He was a con man. When asked to reproduce destroyed parts of the Book of Mormon, he could not because there were no golden tablets to reference.

    Gypsy Lee
    Community Member
    10 months ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Been there. Another man using god as an excuse to “marry” 12 year old girls. But he HAD to, or they wouldn’t be able to get into heaven. A female can’t get into heaven without a husband/man “bringing” her in. He was actually sacrificing himself to help her eternally… said no scared/bullied 12 year old girl, ever. - Not all religion is bad. What’s bad is when power corrupts & people stop questioning what they once would have considered shameful/corrupt.

    Msf
    Community Member
    10 months ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    He was a crook, and came up with the golden books while in jail for scamming people about his divining rods

    JP Purves
    Community Member
    10 months ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The entire church creed was made up by him (I mean divinely inspired, heh heh). Then when he tired of his wife, an angel came and told him to institute plural marriage so the wealthier church elders could marry as many younger women as they could afford.

    Namea
    Community Member
    10 months ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    He was a known con artist and yet stupid people still believe the c**p he made up.

    Janet Crain
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    He admitted to fraud and attempts to bamboozle the religious people of the day to get money. Not surprising, now, that the Mormon Church is now one of the richest in the world.

    GramDB
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    We humans want to believe so badly that we get destroyed when we find out that our saints were only humans.

    Gypsy Lee
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I was raised in a militantly Mormon family & community. There is more not said than what is actually going on. Give a man power & religion to hide behind & the devil has a hay day. - Not all Mormons are bad, like any group of people there are genuinely good people amongst the bad ones, but you have to admit, religion is all geared towards the subjugation of women so men can get away with horrific behavior & acts. As a woman, I escaped, & could never recommend organized religion to any woman. Ever. RUN! As far away as you can get!

    Laura Capshaw
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Oy! Are you dissing the inventor of the special magic underwear? ;)

    BUMMERS
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    A proven liar & con man, who failed tests to back up anything he said, & yet a huge number of people joined his cult. Oh wait, that's Trump.

    歌凛
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    i assume LDS means latter day saints only after reading some of the comments. people, please stop using acronyms assuming everyone knows what they mean.

    TheLadyMagic
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The Mormon religion says Jesus and Satan are brothers. Both sons of god but by different wives.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Not true. We believe that God only had one wife, and that all his children came from that relationship. Please don't spread false information.

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    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Charlie, cut it out. It is literally in your doctrine. You're lying because you know your church lies, but you don't want to face it. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1986/06/i-have-a-question/how-can-jesus-and-lucifer-be-spirit-brothers-when-their-characters-and-purposes-are-so-utterly-opposed?lang=eng

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    What's your point? It says nothing about God having multiple wives. Yes, we do believe that Jesus and Lucifer were brother, the same way we believe we are all spiritual children of God. Cain and Abel were brothers too. My brothers and I have almost nothing in common. I told no lies in any way.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    "It doesn't say that! Okay, it says that, but it means ____." You know that we're used to your b.s. gaslighting and twisted rhetoric, right? If you have to keep rationalizing and justifying these things, maybe it's time for you to take a close look at the ACTUAL history of your religion. We're not angry or rude or mean because we're persecuting YOU. We're angry BECAUSE YOUR RELIGION HAS CAUSED US UNDUE HARM, ABUSE, AND DEATH. Did I tell you about my little cousin, two years old, who died from his Mormon dad shaking him to death? When my cousin, his wife, tried to leave him with the other kids, their bishop in SoCal said "no, no, you can't break up a family!" Back she and the kids went. Her oldest son finally had to punch his dad out to keep him from beating on the younger kids, but YAY, FAMILY! F*ck Mormons.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Find me some proof that my religion, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, approves any of that through doctrine. I haven't had tor rationalize anything, since you have yet to show some data or facts besides your messed up family relations.That sounds harsh, but it's true.

    Your Queen
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Ok, it just sounds like your family was messed up, but that's not what they're like. You're literally using the exact same argument every time.

    Stephen Isaacson
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The people here commenting about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are honestly dead wrong. The church has its whole history posted and reviewed. All of the facts are laid out in plain sight. You can research all of the archives that the world has about Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the rest of church history here. Literally any subject: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics?lang=eng There are pages and pages of "horrible" stuff that Joseph Smith Jr. Did on the internet from other sources that are all lies. Why? Because at the time 'Mormons' were persecuted and hunted down. All types of lies were invented, and all types of false information was brought up against him because the religious contempt was horrible at that time. The proof: Joseph Smith was arrested 42 times. Arrested and brought in for trial. He was ultimately found guilty: Zero times. doesn't that say something? Why dont you read the book of Mormon and then judge him?

    Your Queen
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I have read the book of Mormon and it is something else. In a good way. Please read it, it's amazing.

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    Stephen Isaacson
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2006/legal-trials-of-the-prophet-joseph-smiths-life-in-court

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    You DO realize that most of us commenting are ex-Mormons, or have family members still in the church, right? Who is going to be honest about the church's many crimes and abuses, those of us who escaped, or those of you who are still enmeshed in it? You white dudes who benefit from it most? Son, I've seen it all firsthand. Mormons were persecuted BECAUSE THEY RAPE AND MARRY CHILDREN. That is fact. Those are my ancestors and relatives. Dude, you're not the victims, you're the problem.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Which church do you mean? It sounds like your family was either part of some splinter sect of Mormonism or they did not follow church doctrine because both rape and pedophilia are strongly disavowed by the church.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    They attend the temples in SLC, LA, and FL. Such radical splinter groups, I'm sure.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    From what you've said they've done, they should be excommunicated. If all of that's true, I would contact a church authority and tell them about it.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    YOU stop being so mean. And criminal. And abusive. If your fee-fees are hurt that someone has decades of evidence that your church and religion are a problem, quit whining AND FIND OUT. Start looking up court cases. Talk to those of us who got out. Just read Krakaur's book. If you think I'm lying? GO FIND OUT. If your biggest concern is "Waaaah, they're being mean!" then you are in no position to assess the abuses those of us suffered for decades and generations at the hands of your church. Pedophelia is just the tip of the disgusting iceberg.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    It's not the rudeness I dislike, it's the untruth. If there is so much evidence, show some.

    Rayne
    Community Member
    2 years ago

    This comment has been deleted.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    This is not true. He didn't send other men away to marry their wives. And in regards to the 14 year old wife, her father wanted to connect himself with the leaders of the church, so he took it into his own hands to marry his daughter to Joseph. They did not live together nor did they sleep together, and as one critic of Smith said "their relationship was spiritual in variety". Regardless of any of this, younger people married far older people during that time period. Some of the earliest age of consent laws came out in 1885, and they varied from age 10-12 depending on the state. So for his time period, it was quite progressive for Joseph to tell people to wait until they were 16 to have sexual relations with their spouses.

    James Arvidson
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Him or Brigham Young? Have not read too deeply but there seems to be a big divergence in the organization with the change in leadership. Both were questionable but give "credit" to the right person.

    TheLadyMagic
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    It was Joseph Smith, Brigham Young was his best friend and fellow pedophile. Joseph Smith told his followers that God had told him a piece of land that he was supposed to have and for them to settle on. Unfortunately for them God hadn't bothered dimension the first Native people that were already living on the land. Joseph Smith had convinced them that they could just kill the indigenous people and it would be all right. After 2/3 of them were killed including Joseph Smith Brigham Young, beg then indigenous people to please let the remainder of them just leave and they won't bother them anymore and he did not stop until he got to Utah.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Well none of that was true. Joseph Smith was killed in liberty jail by a mob, and Brigham young was nowhere near the area when the murder occurred. Also, the Black Hawk War, the main conflict between the Native Americans and the Mormon pioneers occurred years after Joseph's death, and was sparked because the Utes thought the Mormon were using supernatural means to kill them (smallpox), and the pioneers thought the Utes were killing their cattle and trying to drive them out of yet another territory.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    One of my ancestors who made the trek to SLC with BY wrote a book about it. It's true. They believed that if the Native people living there rejected their word of God, they deserved to die. Genocide is just one of the charming features of Mormonism.

    Larissa Herrboldt
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Where is this information in the comments coming from? It all sounds extremely false.

    Aly
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I wish it was all false, but having grown up Mormon and done lots of research I can tell you this is true. If you want more info read the CES Letter, it has a website with all the references and quotes from church leaders

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    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Much of it is. The church is very open about it's history. If you want to know anything remotely true about the church, look it up on the church website or Wikipedia or something. The people on this site are heavily biased against religion.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Charlie, we're heavily biased against abuse. It turns out that religion is one of the main perpetrators of said abuse. Especially Mormons. You formed the He Men's Woman Hater Club and called it religion. I've dealt with your b.s. for decades. You're either lying, or you don't actually know your own church's history. Go talk to the ones of us who left, and find out why.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Seems to me you know nothing about the church at all. The church is very against any kind of abuse, and promotes men and women as equal partners in a relationship. You have yet to produce a shred of evidence for any of your false claims. As for me, I haven't done anything to you. I don't even know who you are. You don't even know me, and yet you go out of your way to throw hatred at me. What a funny world.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The church may be "against" it, but every single time a woman in my family has gone to them for help with abuse issues, they are told to return to their marriages or they will be excommunicated. So who's lying? 50+ of my Mormon cousins? Or you? Don't forget, I know all of this firsthand, because I've been a member of your church, and my family have been Mormons since the 1850s. And I really, really hate abuse and domestic violence. If you think that is "personal hatred" towards you, it's time for you to sit down and have a good, long think about that.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    You literally cannot be excommunicated for divorce, my grandparents are both members and divorced. SO again this is either false or your family is part of some other faction of Mormonism.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    My family helped found the Mormon temple in SLC, and I have four generations of Temple Elders on that side. All of my aunts, several uncles, and most of my cousins on that side of the family are still involved in the church. I can tell you how much Mormons suck going back 12-14 generations, if you'd like. Do you want to know how many dead bodies we have in my family thanks to the Mormon church?

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The more I read of your comments, the more I doubt your family's problem was church attendance.

    Maxwell Mulcock
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I've looked through all these comments and it seems that Mrs. Jan Glass has a lot of opinions but no sources to back them up.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Maxwell, you are perfectly capable of going to a library, or looking up court cases, or even just talking to others. There are huge communities of ex-Mormons who will provide you with more information. There are plenty of sources. I have been doxxed by the Mormon church before, and there is no way I am giving you any information that will include my family's names/identifying information. You want sources? I mean it: go talk to ex-Mormons. Ask one or two questions. That's all you have to do. They will make sure you have documents, stories, books, histories, tax records, whatever you need. You won't, though, because you are afraid to question it.

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    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Look, Maxwell! Look at all of the sources you and others here can access!

    Nazda Pokmov
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    He insisted it was perfectly fine to have a lot of wives.....

    Elijah Berhold
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    We all live in a FREE country don't disrespect others religious belives

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Bull. Religion in this country has taken away more rights than anything else. As long as Christians are going to call me a wh*re for having an abortion and tell LGBTQ+ citizens that they're going to burn in hell, I will disrespect their stupid, backward, idiotic beliefs until my dying day. To hell with religion.

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    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Your argument is foolish. Personal experience is a dumb basis to generalize an entire group from. I personally do not approve abortion, but there is no reason to be rude about it. Our church teaches to love everyone regardless of their choices because we are all God's children. You cannot take experience you have had with a single religious group and then project that onto an entire religion. That is stupid, backward, and idiotic.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    "Personal experience is a dumb basis to generalize an entire group from" Hang on... can't stop laughing.... Child, personal experience is THE MOST ACCURATE THING to base this on! Yes, I can absolutely take my experiences with Mormons and "project" it onto... Mormons. You don't know what you're talking about because your church lies to you. I know it's scary to face this, but you don't get to keep hand-waving these abuses away.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Generalization is a logical fallacy and an incoherent argument. A few experiences you have had do not reflect the entire church at large. Your personal experience is therefore biased, making it one of the least accurate things to hinge an argument on. Regardless, your personal experience is not incredibly common either, in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that is. I cannot speak for splinter sects or other denominations of Mormonism, but as for my Church, abuse is neither common, condoned, or promoted.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    So my personal experiences don't count, but yours do? Sure, sure. But Charlie, did I tell you about my Mormon cousin Brenda? She was 15, went on a date with her Mormon boyfriend, and he was pressuring her to go further sexually than she wanted. She said no, but he pushed and pushed, and forced her to engage in some "just the tip" action, according to her. That's how she got pregnant with her first kid. So now she's been married for 30 years to an alcoholic who raped her, cheats on her constantly and has at least one other kid outside their marriage, and has been in jail multiple times for DUIs. They're currently raising 4 of their 6 grandchildren, because all of their kids are eff-ups. But they still tithe every week, so awesome, right?!

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    We don't believe in sexual relations until after marriage, so the boyfriend in the story was not following our rules. We aren't allowed to drink alcohol either, and spouse abuse is obviously out of the question. It's odd to me that you keep bringing up people that are obviously not following the Church's doctrine as examples of the church.

    jevais
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Mrs Jan Glass right on I totally agree with you a hundred percent. I do believe in God, but none of the nonsense that mankind has made of it.

    Tamra Stiffler
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Being in a "free" country means she can say whatever the hell she wants. Don't like it, leave.

    Larissa Herrboldt
    Community Member
    2 years ago

    This comment is hidden. Click here to view.

    I don't understand why he would be on this list...even if he wasn't perfect, he didn't do anything bad enough to be included on this list.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Interesting that you don't think child rape, murder, and embezzlement is "bad enough." You might want to learn a little more about your buddy, hon. I know you won't, though, because religious people, especially Mormons, don't want to question their entire screwy belief system.

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    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Explain. I want sources, evidence, and proof before you accuse Joseph Smith of any of that. I'll wait while you find nothing. C'mon, put your money where your mouth is instead of making false claims with no evidence.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    It's well-documented history. You can find it anywhere. This isn't something secret, except to other Mormons. But I'll happily introduce you to my multiple Mormon women cousins who were forced into abusive marriages as teens, and then told to stay in those abusive marriages. We're now dealing with mutli-generational abuse and poverty as a direct result, because when you're 5, and walk in to find your dad's dead body hanging, or see him whaling on your pregnant mom yet again, and you beg your church for help and they tell you this is "God's will" and to "pray," you end up damaged for the rest of your life. Every single Mormon member of my family is poor, on drugs/an alcoholic, with too many kids, raising their own grandkids, and abusive/abused. A half-dozen in jail. All direct results of the church. Mormonism sucks.

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    ...and still no statistics or evidence I see, still focusing on anecdotes. Three major points. 1. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does not allow marriage until you are a legal adult, and only in the temple. So if your cousins were married before they were adults, then they must have been part of a different denomination of Mormonism. 2. Church members are not allowed to drink alcohol or use any form of addictive substance, so again, either your family way part of some other church or they did not practice church doctrine. 3. Spouse abuse or any kind of abuse is staunchly opposed by the church. It does not sound to me that your family is involved with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in any way.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    And yet it all happens, and keeps happening. Golly! This is commonly found information if you spend 30 seconds looking. Even if I were to provide you with court cases, pictures of my cousins' bruises or jail paperwork or whatever, or the books my ancestors wrote about settling SLC, you still wouldn't believe me, because you value faith over facts. But when you have to have an actual, entire Wikipedia entry about your church's history of sexual abuse, that's saying something. thttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_abuse_cases

    Yukon Charlie
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    This is a direct quotation from that link. "The LDS Church states that abusive behavior, whether physical, sexual, verbal, or emotional, is a sin and is condemned unreservedly by the church.[49] The church teaches that victims of abuse should report it to their bishop or other trusted leadership, and should be assured that they are not to blame for the abuse. Bishops and other trusted leaders are told by the church to contact the church's Help Line before any further reporting takes place.[49] Abuse of any form should be reported not only by the bishop but also by the victim to local law enforcement.[49]" of course there will be bad people in any group, but you'll notice the church doesn't permit or defend abusers, as many of these people were excommunicated.

    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    You can tell me what they SAY all you want, Charlie. I have fifty years experiencing what they DO, and it ain't this. You need to ask your "trusted leaders" why they fail so many of the women in their church. Stop talking to me, go talk to them.

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    #22

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Churchill. He started the Bengal Famine which killed 3 million people. He also was incredibly racist and liked killing through gas.

    ComplexNombers , wiki Report

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    Lucifer
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Winston Churchill, a hero according to the UK & US. Churchill carried out a genocide in India (4+ million killed through deliberate famine). And Churchill believed that eugenics could solve race deterioration and reduce crime and poverty. US & UK were very much on the side of Hitler, until they realized that he posed a threat to their power on the global stage. That seems to be missing in the narrative of why WW2 started.

    View more commentsArrow down menu
    #23

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Andrew Jackson.

    He’s always presented as the “common man’s president” but he treated the Native American’s terribly . He also had a huge rowdy party and trashed the White House

    Account28784 , wiki Report

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    #24

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Travis Scott, still ain’t over what insane s**t he did

    GrouchyInteraction12 , wiki Report

    #25

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Oliver Cromwell

    Tried to make England a republic, ended up being a king in all but name. Butchered the Irish, banned Christmas and is partially responsible for the puritans (who fled to America after the monarchy was restarted)

    EwanWhoseArmy , wiki Report

    #26

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Charlie Chaplin definitely. Dude groped/assaulted girls and married a woman 40 years younger than him

    cnoelle94 , wiki Report

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    Nicole Weymann
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    First wife had (falsely) announced a pregnancy at 16, then they married, later divorced. Second wife announced pregnancy at 15, he married her, otherwise might have been prosecuted because she was a minor when she got pregnant. Also divorced. Marriage no. 3 was relatively unspectacular age wise (she was 21). Within and in between marriages multiple affairs. His last wife, Oona, was 18 when they married (he was 54). They stayed together until his death, had eight children. (All according to Wikipedia - not good, but I found no 40 year age gap).

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    #27

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Benito Juárez

    He was the type of president who kills his opposition instead of negotiating. He did a lot of illegal executions.

    He was going to be executed in Guadalajara, however one of his ministers convinced the soldiers not to kill him with a famous phrase "alto, los valientes no asesinan", the soldiers forgave his life and risked theirs as the disobey an order. Well, as soon as Juarez returned to Mexico city, he immediately ordered to kill all of those soldiers with no mercy (source: my sister worked with the Sargent's descendant)

    After Juárez's government, there's a period Known as the porfiriato, where Porfirio Díaz was Mexico's president for 30 years. It was possible just because there was no opposition alive

    Juarez suddenly died in 1872 from a heart attack. It's believed that a woman, to avenge his husband, worked on his home as a maid, and when she had the opportunity, she put an infusion of "veintiunilla'" a herb known by the natives for being poisonous and cause a heart attack 21 days (veintiún dias) after it was drank

    elav92 , wiki Report

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    Lorraine
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    This. Not to mention he reformed the Mexican state by removing the church influence (which was not wrong) only to enrich himself and his family with all the resources confiscated. Also, he was indigenous but ashamed of it so he was extremely racist. If he hadn't died, he was ready to change the law to stay in power indefinitely.

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    #28

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Andy Warhol was a fraud and an abuser.

    The book Edie is a great read, but sad.

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    Luther von Wolfen
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Warhol wasn't great as a person, but I've done a little research into him. He was a complex person who suffered in some ways. He did horrible things, but he also served at his church's homeless shelter well into his later years. Derinitely suffered from trauma and possibly depression.

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    #29

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Dr Suess cheated on his partially disabled wife and she eventually committed suicide because of how distraught she was.

    “I am too old and enmeshed in everything you do and are, that I cannot conceive of life without you,”

    brunette5179 , wiki Report

    #30

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Kinda coming much more into light now but The Founding Fathers, all of them owned slaves and by modern day standards they would be horrible people. But something I think lots of people don’t remember is even if these things are utterly reprehensible, everyone was doing it and they were all children of their time.

    madrazych7 , wiki Report

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    Leo Domitrix
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    What history books didn't mention that fact? I learned that in the 1970s! And we had debates in Ethics class about this stuff....

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    #31

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers William Hurt. I remember seeing tons of praise for him when he passed recently.

    Thing is, he beat and raped Marlee Matlin back in the 80s. She discussed it in her memoir. When he was approached about it, his response wasn't to deny it, but to apologize for any pain he "may have caused" to her.

    If you want to praise his acting, fine. But remember what sort of person he was behind the characters you loved on film.

    crabraveoverdose , wiki Report

    #32

    John Lennon.

    I'll have to find some links to stuff but what I heard was he screamed his son's eardrums out and was generally apathetic about his familial duties and flew off the handle in violent fits often.

    BRB gotta Google.

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    Felipe Pereira de Sousa
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Yeah. Paul wrote Hey Jude about Lennon's son, Julian, because his father was a d**k to him. But, hey! All you need is love.

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    #33

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Gandhi , dude was a pervert. Mostly to kids

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    #34

    Someone Asked "What Beloved Person In History Should Be Hated?", Here Are 30 Eye-Opening Answers Margaret Sanger was pro-eugenics and a racist.

    In promoting birth control, she advanced a controversial "Negro Project," wrote in her autobiography about speaking to a Ku Klux Klan group and advocated for a eugenics approach to breeding for “the gradual suppression, elimination and eventual extinction, of defective stocks — those human weeds which threaten the blooming of the finest flowers of American civilization.”

    She is seen as a saint to many.

    Avraham_Levy , wiki Report

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    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    This is one of the biggest "it's complicated" issues to examine in terms of structural oppression. We can't separate what the Nazis did with eugenics. Two generations earlier, however, having a severely disabled child or children was rarely viable, especially for poor families. There were no resources, no funds, and very little education. There were no Special Olympics, no "mainstreaming," nothing. If you are a poor immigrant mother with four children already, living in a tenement in NYC during an economic panic, and you have a child with severe disabilities, what other options were there? Put them in expensive institutions rampant with sexual and physical abuse? Sell the kid to PT Barnum? Abandon it? The science at the time was all they had. This is ultimately about women having little power and few options, not a hatred of disabled people/minorities. Now that we know better, we do better.

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    #35

    PT Barnum. I mean, the movie was entertaining and great to watch, but it was definitely the life of PT Barnum the way he might have told the story. The man had a slave woman as part of his freak show. He scammed people and was just generally a nasty human being.

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    #36

    Helen Keller did some fantastic things in her personal life and for society, so that's great. She was also a staunch supporter of eugenics, which is uterly horrible. And while on the topic, Alexander Graham Bell invented the telophone and fought for the inclusion of deaf people... by trying to outlaw sign language and forbidding deaf people from marrying to prevent the birth of more deaf people, whom he saw as "the defective race"

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    Mrs. Jan Glass
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    As a woman who grew up severely disabled, and only had the opportunities she did because her parents were wealthy, Keller used her platform for her entire, hardworking life to spread awareness. She spoke about birth control for prostitutes, since babies born of syphilitic mothers was one of the leading causes of blindness, in a time when an angelic disabled lady wasn't supposed to know about prostitutes and sex, much less talk about them in Boston parlors. She performed on vaudeville stages to earn money to pay for other deafblind children's educations. "Tireless" doesn't even begin to describe her work. We have GOT to stop using "they supported eugenics" as an easy way to cancel out everything else, because that was the scientific understanding at the time, and it was related to economic and social accessibility. It's not all Nazis then. It is expensive to be disabled. If you were a "fallen woman" in the early 1900s with a blind baby, you didn't have many options or support.

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    #37

    if Penn and Teller ever taught me anything it’s the answer to this question, and that answer is Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Teresa, and The Dalai Lama

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    Is Be
    Community Member
    2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The Dalai Lama has never advocated for the return of serfdom to Tibet.

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