You're kidding yourself if you actually believe that because you're a lesbian you haven't been conditioned to think in a sexist way about women. We live in a patriarchal society and we are bombarded from birth with imagery and opinions of how women should behave and present. I’m lesbian too but I know I have ingrained misogyny and I challenge myself on it constantly.

I don't think being lesbian automatically makes you immune to male influence... Sadly so much of male ideas is so ingrained in our society that you're influenced without knowing it.

Yes you are conditioned by society it is deep in your brain even when you don't think so.

Women are like men we are all hairy ! Hundreds of years ago all human couldnt shave and everyone was hairy all over (yes even the face) its a genuine fact!

"I'm a lesbian, so I haven't been conditioned by men to think any kind of way towards women." This is one of the saddest and funniest things I've read in this thread. Please, tell me you weren't serious in writing this. "But for me personally, one of the things I love about a woman's body is how soft and smooth her skin is. I'm all for equality, but I like that women AREN'T like men, the sense that they shave their bodies. " Say what? So you're saying that you aren't really a lesbian but that you are actually attracted to people who have smooth skin and shave their bodies? Because I hope you understand that if women were really that different from men we wouldn't _need_ to shave our bodies. We wouldn't have that hair in the first place, now would we?

Agreed!

I am not a lesbian but having a father who ditched us when I was 12 I wasn't in awe with men. Even though my Grandfather and Uncle (on my Dad's side) stepped up to the plate. But men in general as I aged struck me as nobody to be impressed by. Flirting to me is all about them and sometimes insulting. However, like the others are saying it is still hard not to notice that we are a Patriarchal society. I do appreciate indoor plumbing and cities like Rome and Manhattan and find I do have to go a little easy on them. Bless their hearts. But as far as body hair I find it very unattractive. Even on my fiance and ex husband I am not a beard or mustache fan. When I meet God I want to ask what happened at the Round Table when they were all discussing how to create the human body.

Plenty of women have naturally smooth skin without shaving. So of cause you weren't conditioned by men. However, sexual selection is a thing, and it is the process that drove the differences between men and women, which are now huge, including brain size, intelligence, behavior, sexual organs, hormones, physical strength, appearance, etc.

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Lesbo should be put down

@Shauday oh it does! And I attempted this in the winter months, I can't imagine the summer! And for people who argue "well the hair serves a purpose, it keeps away bacteria yada yada" yeah, it served a purpose in the middles ages, if you live i a developed country where soap and water are readily available, it serves no purpose, and there's no excuse to walk around smelling funky! lol

My underarm hair isn't real. Just kidding.

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@Amanda Panda You do realise you're contradicting yourself, right? Also, no - hair doesn't lead to more sweating. Otherwise I guess you shave your head too in order not "encourage more odorous sweating" (to quote Shauday, whom you apparently agree with) on your head. No? Then perhaps it's time you stopped rationalising your behaviour and just owned up to the fact that your likes and dislikes are very much a product of societal norms and have little to nothing to do with any rational reasons.

Amanda Panda, you're lucky! I'm of French extraction and it takes me a lot longer than two minutes once a week to shave! It's every day or it's major stubble.

@Felicia Dale, I guess in that context I am lucky. I'm half Dutch and Half italian, I guess when it came to body hair, I took on the Dutch side, light color, very fine. My sister on the other hand, bless her heart, dark, and coarse.

@Markus Like I said, its my preference, you have your own, as you are also entitled to your opinion. I imagine if you are transitioning from MTF its a lot more hair to shave, and even if its FTM the hormones would create ADDITIONAL hair to shave. Not all women find shaving to be a time consuming pain. It takes me all of 2 minutes, once a week to shave. Being clean shaven makes me feel more hygienic. I know women who spend more time plucking their eyebrows than they do shaving. But to each their own.

It could also be the name of the anime character that's your profile photo. Never know.

*begin sarcasm* But she did it because of the smell, that's a completely normal reason to "turn lesbian", didn't you know? I think that's in the official rulebook. You really should go to the meetings more often. *end sarcasm* :) :)

Eyy yo. Just adding my unsolicited two cents, Markus. I was actually wondering as well if it was MTF or FTM. Your user name isn't necessarily indicative of your transitioning experience. "Master Markus" could be a band name for all we know. Pretty sure Amanda isn't a Panda, although I'm not certain :)

and also, " I just don't like body hair on men OR women. It's just a preference, to each their own, but I'm personally turned off by lots of body hair regardless of gender." agree 100%

In my experience, it's not so bad after it's grown out for a while (for the first little while it is itchy, though).

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Sure. You "turned lesbian" because of the smell, that's totally legit.

I agree that I am a little disappointed in my buy in to hairless = beauty... but I do love when my legs are smooth

I'll happily not shave for a couple of days but it will always get to a point where it really annoys me, not because its ugly but because I like feeling smooth. I'm sure most girls will agree how nice it feels getting into bed with freshly shaved legs haha. As with bikini, I find it extremely uncomfortable to be really hairly - I honestly have no idea how people have the patience. With the girl in the post, I don't have an issue with the hair, at least not armpit - its that the hair looks uneven on the legs that makes it look a bit odd for me

I would be willing to bet that it's not a conditioned response rather an inherent response. It's just a guess but I have a strong hunch that if ten babies (or youngsters anyway) were shown photos of hairy versus hairless they would choose hairless just as they choose a more traditionally "attractive" face over an "unattractive" face. There are social norms that are simply because human nature has a built in internal desire or distaste. I'm not necessarily saying this is one of those things but why did women start shaving in the first place? It's not like there's a lot of media attention placed on women shaving. There really isn't. There's a little but it's not that much.

I'm not bothered by the fact that I don't like it. We grow up as children, going from having no hair to all of a sudden having hair everywhere! For me, it totally sucked! My hair was itchy, and made my skin not it's usual color (although that one is probably attributed to socialized beauty standards). Let's face it. Hair in some areas has some biological functions that are a little less than pleasant for some people. Personally, I find that the severe lack of understanding some people have about others not liking hair is what's actually sad. Just because they had the time of their lives growing their hair doesn't mean we all did.

xD I was too but hey you can also think of it like not cutting the lawn (we also trimm our nails for that matter). Tastes are different. It would just be odd to like it natural and still shave . Some like wild some like smooth - whatever society says - and it is just body hair anyway..

me too

Not sure if it's conditioned or natural to not liking hairy legs on women. Just think of its connection to testosteron level (mainly - not exculisively - man hormon). Man may be conditioned to like NO hair on women's leg, but liking LESS hair on it seems quite natural for me. So our cultural norm is just the extreme of a natural tendency.

I'm not bothered by the fact I don't like it. I don't like body hair on men, either.

Conditioning is it when people who praise gross c**p shame you to the point is that your mind weakens and you believe that your own opinion should bother you

Conditioning is when people who praise c**p you find gross shame your plyable mind so much that your own opinion bothers you.

We haven't been conditioned not to like it, it's natural not to like it. Women didn't used to be hairy like that. That thick hairiness is specific to a genetic population, and only members of that genetic population like that sort of thing. Men are attracted to the infintile, and so the more childlike traits a woman carries through into adulthood, the more attractive she appears. it's a whole field of study in evolution, and it's not just humans that practice this form of sexual selection. There are plenty of women out there that are not hairy like this. Before women like her would have struggled to find a partner, and it would be a less common trait, but as it is genetically dominant, it has quickly spread throughout the population now that women can hide this just by shaving.

what if your real conditioning is not to dislike hairy people but to be bothered by disliking hairy people ?

Well I know many women, including myself, who don't grow such dark hair. My legs may be hairy sometimes, but won't look like that. That dark hair reminds me of men's body hair which I just find unfitting...

Or we all just have personal taste and preferences. Like how I'm bothered by the fact that you suggest our personal opinions and tastes are fake and all of us are actually innocent victims of brainwashing.

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"We've been conditioned to it not being our taste." lmao. some people just dont like it, purely out of taste. i personally hate hair on me, and on my sexual partners, male or female

I almost guarantee she wouldn’t be attracted to that kind of mind set anyway, so don’t worry I’m sure she’d have stayed away from you.

Yep, likewise! Wish I saw her photos as a teenager, would have saved me a great deal of embarrassememt and feelings of being a freak :)

Same here, winter I only shave my pits. Also I'm 57, hair definitely comes in a lot thinner by now.