MAN is the one that derives pleasure from pain. MAN is the only one that tortures on purpose. Nature is surviving. Yes there are a VERY few small exceptions in nature. There is absolutely no compariton. How many things in nature rape their babies? How many beat their young? On and on and on.

I sure know enough to know that humans are cruel. We're the ones torturing other human beings and living things. So how is that "workings of nature"? Workings of nature would be a human or animal killing others (animals that is) for food purposes, protection and, as it happens int he animal world and sometimes ends deadly, fight to mate.

You obviously don't. Humans are cruel, and have become even more cruel in the last 10 years-- with their hate speech toward people who are different from them. Just ask the bullies on the playground, the ones who murder other humans. The ones who kill animals for sport. The ones like this who throw animals off a bridge for no reason.

dude really?

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And an example close to home - have you seen a cat play with a mouse before it eats it? What, you think that's accidental or something? Or that he needs that to survive? Cute. But unrealistic. Yes. Some animals torture others for pleasure. Cats are not the only ones either.

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I suggest both of you look up how parasite wasps reproduce. Just a small example, I can name many, many more if needed (but I haven't had my caffeine yet and honestly I can't be arsed). Karen - lots of things in nature rape their babies. And kill their or other's young. Or eat them if the circumstances are right. Again, try to get more involved in the world you're living in. Nature isn't like disney makes it look. Nature is often what we perceive as cruel. That's where we get it from. We are part of nature. We're not majorly different from the rest of it. A little smarter and a little more empathy (yes. More. Not all of us, but on a whole). That's about it.